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July 15, 1848, THE NORTHERN STAR. 8 ———~...
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July 15, 1848, The Northern Star. 8 ———~...
July 15 , 1848 , THE NORTHERN STAR . 8 ———~^——^ —— ^____^_^____^ . . — . . __^ .. . _
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[ Bring prevented by our publishing arrangements from giving the debate cri Parliamentary R-. form , in the House of Commons , on Thursday , the Sth , we now present a pretty full abstract . ] Several petitions ia favour of Mr Hume ' s motion having b 2 en presented , Lord G . Bektihck presented s petition having ihe same prayer , in which he said he could SOt concur . The noble lord stated that the petitioners quite concurred ¦ with the noMe lord ( J . Russell ) in his opinion of the superiority of Universal over Household Suffrage , ond of Annual over Triennial Parliaments- ( ' Hear , hear , ' acd a laugh . ) Mr C : Peassos presented petitioss from South Lambeth , Camber well , and Manchester , in favour of the motion of the hon . m-: mb = T for Montrose . Mr Clat presented a similar petition from the Tower Hamlets
Mr lirjHE expresied a hope that the house would come to a division to night , and that bon . members , bearing thisin mind , would regulate their speeches accordingly . ( 'Hear , hear , 'and a laugh . ) The Acjocsssd Desatb . —The order of the dsy for resuming the debate upoa the motion for Pirliamentory Reform was then read . { 'Divide , divide . ' ) Sir B . Osbobke , ic questionirg the policy of adjourning this dcoai ? on a previous evening , ha- ! had no intention of throwing a slur upoa the intentions and motives of the hon , member for Montrose , bat he had suspected it was not f * r the reason that tfee sugar duties were about to expire that the debate had been adjourned . ! The sugar duties had expired —( hear)—snd the d- bate might as well have come eff on Friday night . ( Heir ,
hear . ) At the same time , he adsaK'sd that the lion , member for Heotrese had only yielded to the necessities of the case . Three very remarkable speeches had be « a delivered n hen ti < motion had been brought forward , and the assertion bad been made by ail the three speakers that this movement was not founded or bated on any popular support . One of those hon . gentlemen ( Ur D'sraeli ) had said that the movement was e'to . neons acd not popular . At the same time it w « B founded ob su . cn justice enS e-peduncy that he ( Mr B Osborne ) would give his vote for amending the present represenla Hon of the country . ( Cheers . ) Aad , although tkere was a difference in the wording of the ptti ' . ions to the iioa . se , they all united , tn sayitg that th ; present repiMtntation ef the country was inadequate . ( Hear . ) Thetbree
speakers to whom he referred had ridiculed the details ; but not one had directed his arguments against the principles of the motijn . Even the hon . member for Buckieghamshire , for whose speeches , ^ rhen no * , directed against himself , he aiwsya felt the greatest admiration , and wh by bis untiring energy ba ^ almost called galvaaism oat of the defuact principles oi Toryism , had not expresly guarded himself against the b « li » f that he was not opposed to further progress . In Bbert , during the course of this debate it appeared * o Mm that the finality doctrine bad disappeared with the old stage-coaches , and the only question wa ^ th . t should ba tho tare oi the new vehicle , and wLo < 3 ould be the drivers . He would a * k th » house fa all tiirsess whether the plan the noble lord had foreshadowed wa ? not
mora vague and indefinite than that of hia con . friend ? The noble lord shook his head acd ssid , ' V 7 e do rot object to reform , but this is not the proper time . ' Vfby , in 1785 , wien Mr Pitt introduced his measure of reform , the answer of Lord Korth was , 'This is not the proper time '—( bear , hear)—and when , in 1790 , Mr Flood introduced hia motion , Mr Pitt , who had then su ? c = ede 3 to the Treasury beaches , told him , ' This is not the proper time '—( a lsugh )— and one bon . m-mber of tbat day got up and said , that so far from being the propsr time , he recommtadad the hon . g ntltmaa to psstposo his motion for a century . ( A laugh , ) The noble lord , when he brought forward his motions in 1822 , 1 S 28 and 18-31 , was also answered by the Minister of tbat day in the satEB cackoo-note . ' This is not the proper tiae . '
For bis own part , he conceived that no measure was more fitting than this at th <» present time , when they had just hid so many indications of a comiag storm on the hor zju . Tfiey had occupied a considerable part ef the session , in passing measures for the security of the Crown and government of tha country , and they were bound now t © pass other measures of a healing nature . The noble lord ought not to giro a vogae and indefinite answer , but ought to lay upon the table a bill to amend the naional replantation . If they could » ay the taxation of the country was what they could Wish , that the Erxhsquer was fall , and that parliament Kss a chtck upon the public purse , then ho could understand the objections gf ^ e ngbio lord ; but he palled cpon the house to recollect teat the great complaint of
the ministers of the crown was , that so far from wishlag to increase the pablic burdens it had been pressed upon them by the house , and when ha considered the enormous burden of taxation that pressed , upon the csuutry , and that all their resources were failing , he thosght it was an argament why they should reform the constitution of that house . His hon . friend tha member fer SackiHghamshire had said that the taxation had r .-mained stationary since 1827 , and quoting , as he said from memory , had stated that the revenae of the financial year ending Janssry , 1828 , was £ i 9 50 Q , 030 ; bat he ( Mr Osborne ) found that tha ordinary revenue of that year , aft-r deducting the balances and bills , was £ -5 i , 800 . 000 being a mistake of £ 5 , 3 : 10 , 009 , He could not discover how his hoa . friend ma £ o oatthst taxation
had cos iccreasea , unless ho excluded the fneonn tax from his argu-sent . Bat he was surprised that his feon . friend took the year 1 S 28 as a proof of his argument . If ae bad taken the year 1 S 35 , after the passing of the Beform Bill , he would have found that the estimates for the army , savy , ordnance , and mi-cellaneous votes were ealy £ 14 , 123 . 000 , whilst , in 1848 , they were £ 23 , 315 , 000 . Ia the United States the tsiatien par head was only 9 s "i ., ia Russia It wasSs . 9 i „ ia Auttrii 11 * , 6 d ., in Prussia 12-. id ., in France £ l . ii ,, bat in England it was £ 2 . 12 s . 63 . The whole taxation of this conatry amounted to £ 09 , 000 , 000 , without including poor-rates . Ch . urciiLrs . ti 9 , borough aad county rates , which amounted to £ 14 , 000 . 000 more , making ia the whole £ 70 , 600 , 000 and upwards . And what did tha working classes pay
ia iadircct taxation ! On tea for every 203 . they paid 105 ., 8 D Ctff' 9 83 ., OD SU £ a- Sj ., on soap 5 s ., oa beer 4 s ., on tobacco 16 s ., aad oa spirits 14 s . He would a . 'k them whether the agitation aad public lecturing against taxation were not the effect rather than the cause of the public discontent upon that snbjee : ? Bat he found a Eimilar system pursued by the society of Old Bondstreet , for ia travelling through the cesntrj he had met frith paid Itczurerg having letters of license from that Biciety . ( Hear , hear . ) He assared ihe house , how = ver , that he would not enter into an examination or discussion of the abstract ri ght to vete . That would do very well for bookworm * aud men . of that description ; bat he would confiae himself to the policy and expediency of the question—how far they should txtend the suffrage .
Many advocated Universal Household Suffrage . Ha was not one of those . ( Hear . ) The institutions of the country having grown up under a limited snfirage , he thought they could not at once give Universal Suffrage with safety to the proper and general representation of the canntry ; but at the earns time , bsing sure that tha representation coald not remain ae it was , he would propass a residential test , which wonld give the suffrage to a great body of educated mechanics . Tha hoc . member for for West Surrey had feardl ? treated those men fairly , when he said they knew nothing of the theory of government . ( Sear . ) The edacatioa of th « class had been advancing , whilst that of the upper classes bad remained at a fixed point , and he was sure that the great bedy of them were ag fit to vote as the
great bofiy oi memberg In that heuse , ( H » ar . ) Upon what did the aoble lord in 1822 , base his motion ? Upon the increasing intelligence and tducation of the people , aad he instanced the year 1770 , when there were enly four circulating libraries in iandon , and contrasted that year with 1822 , when there were 100 ; 900 in the provinces , and 1 , 500 book clubs . Bat now te the increase of those nutnbtrs they mast add ffe . 6 creation « f those seminaries of fastroctios , the mechanics * Institutes , and if the noble lord was eoneUtent la hia argument in 1822 , be was bound to make a farther advance in the right direction , and to admit that great body ef men to the ex . erciie of the suffrage . ( Hear . ) Every men would agree that the representation in that bouss should be a repre . eentstion of the interests , property , wealth , and , to a
certain extent , of the population of the country , and that he thought would be best attained , not by a household , feat by a residential test . That , too , was the old form ef voting in this country . In Sergeant Glanville ' a Committee , which was acknowledged by a learned Whig pesr to be one of the most learned that ever sat , there Being open it Lord Coke , Selden , acd Xoy , who was strongly imbued with aoas . reb . lcal principle ' s , aud who was afterwards Attorney-general , they came to a reialation that « AU men , being inhabitant leaseholders resident within the borough , were entitled to a vote as " ¦ veilas freemen . ' ( Hear . ) They ' wonld find that thesame system was advoctted in 1797 by Lord Grey ; and is 1830 tha Duke of Marlborough brought into that !> oaee ' a bill of a very sweeping kind for the Piymtnt of Members , the
Admission of the Clergy , for Electoral Dis ' . ricts , and Universal Suffrage , and he believed the noble lord and eome of his colleagues voted for that measure . One Cabinet Minister ( Sir J . Hobboase ) expressed a very strong oplnlou on the subject , and at a county meeting is Middlesex , ia 1830 , proposed a resolution to this effect— ' That no House of Commsns would des .-rve the confidence cf the people until the right of suffrage ba extended to all householders psyicg taxes and parochial rates—until each member be chasen by a proportionate body of electors , parli aments be materially shortened , Bud each t ' ec : or , without hope or fear of private loss or gain , be allowed to vote by ballot . ' Aad ytt it had ended by his pliyiug the part of Jeremy Diddler . ( A leuyh . ) Bat in the pr . sent session the noble lord had int ; oduced
a bill for Irdaud vihich gave the tenant at will ot £ 8 a y ££ r thereat to vote . For what reason , thtn could theyjefase it to the £ 10 tenant iu this country ? His hen . friend the member for Buckinghamshire said he looked upon thj suffrage as a privilege . ( Hear , hear . ) Befilr Osboriie ) differed from his ton . friend , for he believed thst the small boronghs locked upoa it as a perquisite . Ho realiy thought there were not abore tWinty- geetkuieti in that house who had not paid pretty smartly and drann checks apon their bankers for their Beats in Parliament , Aud wita whom di 4 the system of bribery originate ! A Whig peer had ascribed i : to the "W hig party , and said it was a necessary thing at the time it first appeared , as a countervailing expedient to the Iviiti Ukrest , ani the first cue en recard wn the cue
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of Westbary , In 1573 . ( A laugh . ) A great satirist had said , ' Thoso who wonld seek to gain the votes of English tribes , ' Must adi to force of merit forco of bribe . ' That was written sixty years ago , but it was more applicable now . If the honse were sincere In their deslro to pat down tbs system of bribery , the course was elmplo . They had enly to extend the area ef voters . Now , let them look at the condition of such districts as Kensington , The house could not ba aware of the monstrous inequality of tho present system . The district ho had mentioned comprised Kensington , Chelsea , Hammer , smith , Falham , aad Chiswick , containing an area of b 510 acres , or fourteen square miles , with a rateable i value of £ 481 212 , a popula : ion of 110 , 000 , and a voting
population of 18 , 345 , —but they returned no member to that bouse ; whiis : tho boroughs of Calne , Dartmouth , and Slidhurst , with a voting population under 300 each , returned one member each , aad Harwich and Thetford , with a voting population under 200 , returned two respectfibls members earh , who ought not to sit for euch small places . ( ' Hear , hear , ' and a laugh , ) He had bo < n astonished to hear the noble lord deny that the government was carried on for the benefit ef the aristocracy ; but he did so , and he quoted Tacitus , The bon , member for West Surrey did go also , and he quoted Dod to prove that there were many men in that house who never had a grandfather . ( Loud laughter . ) Wcri , he had consulted Doti also , and he found tbat there were still forty-two boroughs returning monibete to parliament , which were under local influence ; thirty-two
under the direct influence of peers , and that thirty-three members were returned tothathouseunder the directinflQenco of Tory peers ; so tbat those pters returnta as many members as London , Dublin , Edinburgh , and Glasgow , and other large places . The ceostitntioa ef the house , according to Dod , consisted of sir . marquises , eight earls , tw :-nty . fivo viscounts , thirty-six lords , skty-one baronets , and seventy . one hon . misters . ( Laughter . ) According to Doa , there were 334 members of tbat house under the dirrct inflavnoe of the aristocracy . He attacked the syrt . m , not the mm ; but tbey had now arrived at the pass when thfy ought to say , that the power of the aristocracy has increased , is increasing , and ought to ba diminished . ( Cheers . ) They had heard something : of family petitions ^—they were somewhat sneered at ; bu * . he wouid ask what was the whole system cf povrnmont tiut a snug family party ! Why just lo'k at lha cons !* uetion of ihe preseat cablaer . With
one exception they were all connected one with another by blood and marriage—they formed a snag family parly ( laughter ) ; aud the ricketty bantlinga which they produced were te te accounted for by the f ? ct that the parents of them were all relations . And then , look at the subalterns—at the composition of tho Treasury b-jech atthat moment . Why it was filled with scions of the nobility—cheque-ced here and there with a Liberal statistical representative , possibly from a large town whieb he duld never represent again if he remained with them . ( Laughter . ) But when they caught one of that elass how did the Whigs treat them ! Just as tha gipsies did stolen children—fhoy djefigared them to make them pass as their own . ( Load laughter . ) The noble lord had talked of the regret he would fcaj if he should see the day when the Howards aad the Stanleys we-e exclnded from office . Lird J . Rossbll . —I never said « o .
UrOiBOSHE remembered something extremely like it ia the speech of the noble lord , but he had not been felicitous ia tho choice of names , for there were few of the Howards and the Stanleys in the pnblio service—there was one other name to be met with oftener than either , and who made a very good thing of it . ( Hear , hear . ) But he did not object to those bearing these names—he objected to : he Lord Tom Noddies who were crammed into oiEce , to the eKolnsion of better men . The government was indeed a goverameat of great families , and neither the colonies , the state of the finances of the country , or the condition of Ireland , efcowed tbat we w « . re bee fitted by the system . What the country wanted was a goverameat of practical men , and be believed the hon . member for Sander and , with one of his railway boards , would carry on the government of the
country ss well as the noble lord , Ihe hon . member for Backs objected to the motion because , he said , it was a middle-class movement , and ho said the only Way to govern the country was to have recoune to traditionary influences . When he talked thus he must have forgot a recent day when the middle classes came forward as a body eod stood between them and a revolution , ( Hear , hear . ) If . the country was distinguished tot one tuiBg more than another , it was for the intelligence , the prudense , end the wealth of the middle classes . They cemented the fabric of the constitution—they were the COnn OllDS link between the gsnlry and the working classes—in fact , they were the preservers of the couutiy . What were the traditionary influences to which he w aid have recourse . He remembered one where a country member was superseded because the King .
atarois could not find his coat of arms In the Herald a College , and in those dajsthe Speaker was compelled to sit ia the chair in a cocked hat , ( Laughter . ) Iu the time of H ' -tiry VI ., only Lancaster , in the great county of Lancaster , sent members to that bouse , and in the time of Hsary Til . only York aud Scarborough were repre sented ia the whole county of York . Did his hon . friend wish to go bsck to the real traditionary influences which eave the soujinatlon of tbe members of that house to the Crown , The Crown used to isiae writs to places at its own will and pleasore . Why it was only in 157 S , that Durham was represented , aid tbe hon , member for Newark owed his seat to the last profligate act of Charles II . The great work of the really great Mr Disraeli ( Cheers ) stated that one troop which fought at Edgehill owned more property tfean the whole of the House of
Commons which had voted against them , yet that troop , and many more of the same class , were pnt down by the middle classes of that day . Away , then , with all the talk of traditionary influences—« The knights are dust—their good swords rust , Their souls are with the saints , I trust . ' ( Liaghter . ) He had gra » t respect for the conatry gentlenen ; bat in all his reading he had never found that they hau been leaflets of popular opinion . Why Hampden was cut by the country gentlemen of his day . He would positively not have been asked to dinner by tbe country gentlemen of the present day , ( Laughter , ) It was not the country gentlemen who bad put an end to
the American war . It was not they who carried Catholic emancipation or the Reform Bill . In the presentsession they had certainly conferred the great boon upon the tenants ia farms ia allowing thera to kill their own bares , and they had distinguished themselves in opposing a bill to remove the last link in the chain of intolerance . ( Hear , bear . ) No true friend to his counlry would look down upon either the gentry , the middle or the working classes . The striking off of all shackles from the spread of education , intelligence , and religion , woujd prove tha salvation of the country . The motion of his hon , friend the member for Montrose woald tend that way , and therefore he would give it his firm support .
Mr Sergeant TaLFODED said , as ia early life he had always felt an ardent sympathy with political reformers , asd having gone as far as he thoagbt consis'ent with justice , ana as he was about to give big earnest and deoi Jed oppositian le > the motion of the hoa , member for Montrese , he oould no ^ re pudiate that revolution la little which it presented to his miad , he was anxious to assert his consistency in declining to proceed farther in the path which he was Invited to tread . When be looked back for the la it thirty years— when ha looked to tbe time when he first took an interest in tbe qaestioa of reform , sad then considered tee vast addition tbat bad Dsen made to the popular strength — when he remembered that the system of rotten boroughs had been defended by tbe most brilliant statesmen of the age as a part of the constitution — when he remembered tbat
svery corporation was a little lecal aristocracy — when he recollected that the stability of a paper currency was upheld by executions , —when he remembered that the press was vieited with severe aentinces to prevent the breath even of a murmur of discontent —and then , « hen he contidered the mighty alterations that had taken place since that time , of the power that was wielded by the aristocracy , and taken from them in 1832—when ho considered , tbat tbe popular element had been infused into tbe corporations , — when he considered the reform of their laws , so tbat scarcely the scent of bleod rested upen , the statute book , —and when he coniidered that , so far from the press being
persecuted , it did not saner any annoyance , —when , he said , he considered all these things , he felt bound to say that he must decline from proceeding further and that ho most content himself with perfecting what they had obtained , ond ic imparting to the people knowledge , £ Ed piety , without which knowldga was a bauble or a corse . ( Hear . ) As to the resolution ef his hon , friend , he objected to it as being of a miscellaneous character , as presenting four differe . at things at one thing , and of compelling those who might be disposed to vote in favour of oae proposition to vote against them all . It was an attempt to obtain the votes of mild reformers as opposed to tbose who had a dislike to tbe Sis Points of tho
Charter . It wzs declared by his hon . friend that it was necessary to make a change in the present system ; because there were so many poor persons who had votes , and who were subject to Intimidation , that it was ae ce « sary to iatrodace a greater number of poor persons , and who were & ione to be protected from the same influence by the ballot , If the ballot wtro propoted singly he wonld vote for it ; but in so doing , he must say that he thought its importance was greatly overrated , both by its supporters and opponents . He disbelieved that a-A , rn < . chauical contrivance could ever prevent the most Important political act in the life of a poor man from becoming known , His hon . friend the member for Montrose stated that ho woald introduce the ballot , because the / ranchi ; e which he proposed to give at tha eame time wynld be prejudicial without the ballot—( ' hear , hear , '
from lir HumeJ—and being prejudicial , then ic would be an enormous curse , because it would establish the piwer of tbe purse . The ballot- ' ocx was then to be tho ark cf the English constltutioe , in which the liberties of England were to be wafted to a place of security . Thus then tbey were only to have a hitherto untried experiment , oa the only expedient , between what was to ba a curse or a blessing ! ( Bear . ) His hon . friend then proposed triennial parliameats—tbat is , he woald introduce a little political change . The Chartists propositi annual p arliaments , and be did not Know but they wer i of the opinion of the politicians of a former time ( 1785 ) , psho were were for'annual parliameats , and oftener if a .-ed be . ' Whether the change in the duration et parliaments would be for good or evil he woald not pretend : o gEy whether , like the giant of old , it woald derive jew strength , by coming In coat & ct with that ( torn viUch
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it sprang . It was o point which he did not mean to discuss . He believed it was enly intended to supplant for a time the greater plan ot the ChR rtiftai TJlen as to tho extension of the franchise , and the new distribution of the constituency , ho found that tbe plan whioh so many petitioners prayed for was repudiated by the mover , who promised to explain bis plan in his bill . But , whatever might be the success of the present movement , he believed the bill was perfectly safe for the present session . ( Laughter . ) Then , how did his hon . friend treat the question of household suffrage « His hon . friend said it was not every man who held a honse ; bus every man that a houso held . ( Laughter . ) It was every man who slept in a house ; and he did not know , according to the definition , who was to be exclnded , except the gipsies , who slept
under tents . ( Laughter . ) Howevtr , other mnanlngs were attached to the nord by his hon . friend ; but he warned him of tho dasger that would follow if once he drew a line , and excluded a large body from the franchise . The moment he did so , a tremendous agitation would arise for tho larger franobias . But , supposing tho mea . enre of hia hon . friend was carried , was it to be regarded as a settlement or an instalment J Ae a settlement , his hon . friend knew that it could not stand for i year . As an instalment , it might be accepted by the Chartists ; but it would not be fait not honest to the middle classes to ask them to assent to it as a settlement ; for a settlement it could not bo , ( Hear , hear . ) His hon , friend , tho member for Oldham ( Mr W . J . Fos ) had , on a
foriaer night , attempted to presentcortain indlcationsof the elevation of the classes who were excluded frnm tho possession of the franchise , and for that purpose referred to tho diffusion of cheap literature , as well as to instances of individual power existing in tha humblest portion of the community . Now , although the hon . mi-mber dilated on that last and greatest topic with congenial c'oqucnce , yek he ( Mr Serjeant Taifourd ) confessed that it seemed to him to be utterly beside the question , and tbat such instances neither proved nor indicated anything respecting tbe power existing among tho masses of the people , from whom those Individuals had sprang . The hon , gentleman , also , rather unhappily referred to Mr Thos . Cooper , the suthor of the Purgatory of Suicides , ' in illustration of the fitness of the cltiss to which be
belonged . Surely there never co ^ ld an example more prejudicial to his argument than this . And whtn that instance was cited , and the hen . gentleman called on him ( Mr Sergeant Talfourd ) as a witness , he , as a witnew most tell the truth , and c < rtainly that truth W 88 destructive of tbe reasoning of thehon , gentleman . This was the Th & mas Cooper who went into tho Staffordshire Potteries at a time when difference ? existed between masters and workmen , and the workmen w < re out of employ , andpresented to them harangue after harangue at a season when words became things ; tbe people rushed from the scene of his addresses to thn work cl deselat ' on and plunder , and threw the district into a state of rebellion for two whole days , until one of his unhappy victims was shot dead by the merciful intrepidity of a soldier who led the forces thct were called
out . They then paused , and saw the dreadful delusion when too late . Bat the crimes ef those two days occapied tbe judges in tbe special commission three weeks . And this Mr Cooper was tbe example of the person of genius who was represented , he supposed , as fit to be a moral teacher of his class ; aad these , his deluded victims , were the persons whs were seeking political power . ( Hear , hear . ) He believed tho time would come when they might safaly extend the privilegia of the people ; but rational progress was best fostered by tbe preservation of our institutions , rather than by the en . gesdering of agitation ; and eorneitlyas he believed In tho progress of mankind , he did not believe that it would be most promoted b y giving the mass of the people at present any large amount of palltioal power . With regardto the petitions which had b < en presented to tbe
honse en the subject , undoubtedly they were very namereus , and had come from very resprctab'le persona ; but he denied that there had been any true enthusiasm displayed , or an ; spirit enkindled in the country , or that there had been any public meetiogs worth consideration , except these where tho question at issue was as between thelasserand the greater Charter . ( Hear , hear , and a laugh . ) He did not believe that the reflecting people ot this country of any olaso , however the hon . member ( Mr Hume ) might laugh or sneer at the expressien , were Of opinion that we should now unsettle our institutions . He did not believe that the examples of the democracies of tho present day were so inviting , or that tbe security of property wbb bo great in the piidst of revolutions , as to induce any desire on tbe part of any considerable number of the people
for those changes . On the contrary , he thought that the General fgeling was one of bumble gratitude for the ill " stltutloos under which we lived , and an honest pride in their security—that there was something in them worth living for , and something , if need be , worth dying fer . ( Hear , hear . ) At the present moment England was tbo very Thermopy . ' aofthe world ^ -and was this a time , then , to tamper with her institutions ? ( Hear , hear ) Bating bo jot of hope for the future progress of the speciestrusting that the day would ceme when the only true condition for possessing tha franchise should be the power wisely to understand and rightly to employ it ; believing that the people of this country— and with shame and remorse he admitted it—were wholly unfit to receive the boon proposed , ( Oh , oh . ) Tho working classta possessed great power , bnt it remained to be seen that
they possessed also the intelligence and tbo virtue » o use it fer their own and the public weal—like tho Cyclop ? , they moved in their cave with gigantic power , but still , amidstdarkness and uacertaiaty ; that darknpss wps to be removed neither by cheap literature nor even by thelight of science , without light from heaven . These lines from Coleridge more aptly illustrated their position , and would convey to them , were they disposed te receive it , abetter lesson than any that they could hope to derirefrom their ordinary iastrnctors . It was in these words ;—' The path of ancient ordinance , though it winds , Is yet so devions way ; straightforward goes The lightning ' s track , and straight the fearfal path Of the caano i ball : direct it goes , and rapid , Striving that it may rend , and killing what it reaches . My sou the road the human being travels , Taat on which bl ssing com sand goes doth follow The river ' s course—Vie vallej ' s playinl windings
Carves reund the corn field and the hill of vlnas , Honouring tbe holy bounds of property , And thus secure , though late , leads to Its end . ' Before he sat down he wished to say a word or two of the Parliamentary Reformers of pan times . In those days there were great and acknowledged abuses ; but was the present a time whea the sober and discreet portion ol the people of this country desired to see great changes effected ! At this time did any reasonable man think of unseHling the insti-ntions of the country ! There mi ^ ht be some anomalies in our representative system bnt surely a more fitting season than this might be discovered for applying to them s reraeay . Were Englishmen at a moment of doubt and danger to waste their time and energies In tampering with institutions which had long been to them a source of fame and protection 1 Upon these grounds he should mast cordially , and without the lpast hesitatiCB , givo his vote against the motion of the hon . member for Montrose . ( Hear , hear , )
Mr Cobbeh Baia the hon . member who had just addressed the honse had stated tbat tbe country was not in favoar of the measure of thehon . member for Montrose ( Mr Hume ) . Now , that was the statement made by the noble lord at tbe bead of the government on a former occasion , aud he tttaagnt that it was a most important question . But he pat it to the noble lord and to the hon . and learned Member ( Serjeant Tolfonrd ) did they or did they not deliberately mean to say that the great ma ° scfthe unenfranchised papulation of this country had no desire to possess political power * ( Hear , hear , ) Woald any one in this boose utter each a libel ae that
the great mass of the people who were excluded from political rights were so abject and so servile that they did not even desire to possess the political franchise ? He ( Mr Cohden ) should be sorry to believe it , and . moreover , he did net believe it . And if the noble lord and the hon . gentleman admitted , and no ono would deny the proposition , that tho people did desire to bo enfranchised , then they were placed in this position—that six oat of every seven of tbo adult male population were pressing for , desiring , and claiming a right which they denied to them ; and , if in addition to that s rious dilemma , it coald bo demomtiatedthata very large section of the enfranchised middle classes were in favour of tbo
same view , than he though it became a very serious element in the discussion of the question . ( Hear , hear . ) Withont venturing to anticipate tho result of to-night ' s division , he called upon the house to notice the division list to . morrow , and they would find that In proportion as the members of this house represented large constituencies , where tho middle classes—thi ten pounders—had the free and unbiassed expression of thiir opinions—sbat Justin proportion to that would they find thtir representatives voting in favour of the motion . ( Hear , hear . ) Ho mentioned this in anticipation , because It would prove to be the truth ; and bo men ; ioned it with satisfaction , became ha found in i ; a strong and most useful appeal to the great mass of tbe people , to show tbem that it was not true , as had been attempted to be ehown by more than one speaker that thera was a hostile sp irit oa the
part of the middle classes towards tho working classes , and to show them also tbat just in proportion as tho middle classes could exercise their free and unbiassed wills they were disposed to lhro » n open the portals of tho constitation to their unenfranchised countrymen . ( Cheers . ) The n » xt assertion of the hon . and learned gentleman was , that there wa « not any great number of pe ' -itloae , or any strong expression of public opinion ; but he fiMr Cobden ) could convince him that there has boon a very considerable movement in tho counry at a short notice , and that without organisation , ( Hear , hear . ) He had taken the trouble to record the number of aieet . logs which had been held in favour of tho motion since his hon . friend ansounced the day on which he intended to bring it forward , aad he found that it amounted to
130 ; and there bad been more spontan'ous movement throughout the country in support of tho motion than thera was in favour of tho Corn Law , even after an agitation of five years ; for he would frankly admit that the movement for the Repeal of the Cora Law galvanised , ao it were , from a centre , and that tho meetings were got up by a few men ; bat on the present occasion the meetings bad been local , spontaneous , uninvited , uninflaettced . ( Cists . ) Ha did not deny that there had been discrepancU-s of opinion at those msetihge as to tho precise nature of the object for whleh they should petition ; bat there was much less of discrepancy , discord , and disunion than they bad been accastomed to in times past , and certainly much less than many p : reone rtouldUke to have eeen , ( Hear , hear , end laughter , )
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True , there bad been petitions in favour of tbe Charter and of Universal Suffrage ; tut In the groat majority of cases thfy wire in favour of the motion of Mr Hume . Now though he stood there as tho advocate of that motion , he had nothing to say against tbose who advocated Uu versal Suffrage or tho Charter , and be would never enter the lists to oppise those men . ( Hear hear , ) He confessed that he thought thehon . and learned member for Reading had not shown his usual legal aenmun when speaking in reference to the definition of the term heusehold suffrage . To judge from the hon . and learned gentloman ' s speech erne would come to the conoluaion that household occupancy had always hitherto been considered nothing but tho occupation of an entire house , :. n < t that it had never been decided that a man wholivtdinahouseasalodeer was a
bouseholJer , Was tho bon and learned gentleman Ignorant of the fact , tha * the Court of Common Pleas had decided that a lodger might claim to be rated to tbe relief of tho poor , and when rated might be placed on tho list o ? voters ? Well , Mr Hutse , in advocating house , hold BUfffcgi , merely anopted a slmiUr interpretation to that , and said , without requiring tho £ 10 rating , 'You are a lodger , and may claim to ba on the rate book , ad on the list of volers ;' and 1 ; was really no difficult matter of arrangement to extend thcrul ; a little farther andaay , thatw « Q ItttittlBnoiord nia Vivo on thn premises , the lodger could still c'aim to be rated and entitles to bo on the list of voters , Thin the difficulty tO Which the hoc . and learned gt-ntUnwa olludod , res . peeling tho exclusion of clerks , and intelligent and
prudent young men in lodging , wou d far- got rid of for all these were included by bis hen . frhn &' s motion — nnd so far as that ground was concerned he thought it h & d entirely escaped tho opposition of tho hon . and learned tftn'l' -maa , ( Hear , hear . ) Hewaesorr > to bear the remark which had fallen from the hon , and loiirnrdgentleman with regard to Thomna Cooper . The hon , and learned gentleman alluded to tho past cor-. er of a n ; an who had since distlnguiohed himself in an altogether diff rent manner , ana doubtlocs regretted tho purt ho took in the traneao tionsin the Potteries ; but apart from this consideration the hon . and learned gentU-mnn bad only succeeded In showing , after all , that a voty good pott might he nvery bvid poiiiic ' on , ( Roars of laughter ) Tho motion of his hon . fritnd tho member for Moutrrse was for a bill
to give votea for the election ot members of parliament to housthoiilers—tbat was , to person' residing in a bouse pn d paying taxes for the support of tho poor , Now the theory upon which thoy generally acted was , that that was iho franchise of this country . It was generally said that the ptoplo of this country elected the members of that honee . Was tbat a sham or reality f If there was any ono thing more eharacteristlc of the present time than another , it wa » that piople looked not for Aamsbut ( or realities , Tbe iheory in tblo oonntry was that the people had political po « er , and there was no responsible body , as the bon . and learned gentleman presumed , for educating or preparing them for tho fran . cbise , If there had been any person" responsible for it would have been done long ego . But what was the danger of giving tbefranohisj to the householders whowcro the fathers of theiriumilios , and wbofi led their churches and their workshops ? Ha heard it continually said that the Q'leen reigned in tbo nffc ' Ciions of the people , aad sat enthroned in their heans . Hi- did not believe
that nay extension of tbo franchise wonld endanger that feeling , or effect any change in the form of the govern ment ; and once for all he said tbat , God forbid there should occur any each change . H - hoped if ever there was i revolution in thia country , hy which the monarchial form of government would be done away with , that it might not occur until he was no longer hero to witness it ; for the generation v > ho made a revolution were not those who lived to enjoy tho fruits of It . But if they were to extend the suffrage in th n manner prop sod , he did not expect they would see any great cbenge in the class of pvrsons from whdtn they chose representatives of the poople , They would choose tbem from men of fortune , as they did at present . But tho result of such a change would be , tbat it would bring not Only into the legislature of that house , but
also into the executive goveinreent greater harmony with the wants and wishes of the people , and lead to great * r economy in tho government . These were the two things which were roost ^ wantsd in this country at the present time—namely great retrencb > - meat in the national expenditure , ond more equitable apportionment of taxation . B / the latter he meant that taxation Should be rt moved from its present Indirect sources and more largely Imposed upon realised property . That was a thing which tbe mere Instinct of selfishness would induce the people , when girted with an extended franchise , to Accomplish ; for it was the thing most needed for the aaf . ty of this eoantry . He did not mean to say that all taxation should be only 1 vied upon property ; butwhat ho meant was , that that whioh tbe country want d was the removal of excise and custom
duties—the lessening of the duties ea tea , wine , and sueh commodities . He would remove every exciseman from the land if possible , ano if the pei . plo had tbe power they would accomplish that desirable object , He might be told they would not settle those questions by giving the poople an extended suffrage . He admittrd they could not at once settle those questions in tho year 1818 ; but there was no knowing what another generation might effect . If they included tho householders in the list of those entitled to vote , they would have 8 , 000 , 000 or 4 , 000 , 000 of voters , instead of 800 , 000 , as at fpresent . Could it be denied tfaat such a mc . usoro would havo tbo effect of conciliating the massea of tho people to the institutiansof tbe country ? Whatever disaffection might remain after sneb a change , the country would be stronger in i'SinetltuUons when garrisoned by 3 , 000 000 or 4 , 000 , 000
than when the franchise rested on tbo narrow basis of 800 , 000 vottra . The household last was not a property test , but that at present in operation was ( bear ) , and what they contended for was , that tho man who was taxed for the support of the poor should be entitled to vote . But the honourable and learned gentleman feared that tracer that ayaU-m tbey wo \ a'u txcindp tho merchant , who did not possess a £ 10 freehold . ( FItar . ) Ho admitted that if they approached thequemlon In the spirit of a special pleader , finding fault with iho expressions , sometimes hasty , of an opponent , they might raise an outcry against their proposal ; but as he understood the motion of his honourable friend , ho wished for n fair apportionment of the franchise to tbo people , and ho did not in any formation of electoral divisions require tbat the country should be divided into squares and
parallelograms . It seemed to bo forgotten , however , that the Reform Bill had cut counties frequently into two parts , and made divisisns with r . spcct to boroughs and towns , butho would undertake te do all his hon friend desired withont removing any boundaries of counties and parishes , in-i preserving a sufficiency of tho old ties . But the question of tho re-apportionment of mombers lie considered bj far tho most important part of tho question . He agreed with thote who said tSo suffrage did not stand upon any right at all . He knew of no natural right to vote for a member of Parliament , He possessed a legal right of the hind , of which six-sevenths of his countrymen wore deprived ; but he acknowledged no natural right ; bat he would fix the apportionment of members on some principle , whether property wag the ground . wo ? k or not . At present it was grounded upon property
and in the most monstrous way . Mr Disraeli the other night joktd about the idea of Manchester having seven membtrs under tho proposed stetem , but bo svlabed it had sfiVt-n-times-sevon members . On what principle would the hont g ^ ntlsman apportion members ? He would take Buckinghamshire , and compare it with Man-Chester . In the latter the annual rental assessed to the poor was £ 1200 , 000 ; in Buckinghamshire it was £ 760 000 , aud Buckinghamshire had eleven members while Manchester had two , He would grant that the annual valuo of land represented n larger real amount of capital than tha annual valuo of houses did ; bat then in Manchester the mschim ry , and tbe enormous amount of accumulated porsenal property which went to sustain the commerce and taxation of the country , were not valued—and yet Manchester had but two members while
Buckinghamshire- had clevtn . Was that a fair principle or apportionment , while out of tbone / ourrepresentatives there was not more than ono returned by popular elce . tion ! Was it fair that throe individuals , as was the case in that county , ehenld havo the power of sending representatives to th . it house to tax tho people . Again , take the Weat Riuing of Yorkshire , and there was not one but must eee the necessity of a fairer apportionment of members than at present existed . Comparlrg tho West Riding ef Yorkshire with Wiltshire , they found the population of the former was 1 , 154 , 000 , of the latter 650 , 000 ; the rental assessed to the poor-rate of the former , £ 3 , 576 000 ; of tho latter , £ 1 , 353 , 000 ; while each returned eighteen members . Hi * did not want to increase the munbtr of representatives in that house ; but if this motion was assented to , they must increase the number
of representatives in some districts , and most diminish it in others . He would no ! say much ou tho Ballot , for ic was one of those questlono whieh had the greatest strength in that house and the middling olaooei . Tho farmers t a man were in favour of it . Having declered himself favourable to Triennial Parliaments , he recommended tho house , If it wanted to put an end to tgitation , to allow tha power of the people to be ftlc within it . The y . on . gentlemen thus concluded : — ' ! will only suy oao word in conclusion oa to a subject which has been referred to by the hon . and learned member for Reading ( Mr Sergeant Talfourd ) and tha hon , member for Buckinghamshire ( Mr DleraeU ) . They complain that leagues and associations were formed out of doors , and yet in tho same breath they claim credit for the country that it has rr . ade great advances and reforms , You glorify yoursilrte that jou have abolished the slave trade and slavery . The hoa . and lcarntd gentleman has referred , with tho warmth aud alow of humanity by which
he is distinguished , to the exertions which have been made to abolish tho punishment of death . Whatever you have done to break down any abomination or barbarism in this country has been done by associations and longuea out of this hiuee ;—and why ! Bjcanse , sinco Miinciieeter cannot have its fair representation in thi-j house , is wtiB obliged to organise a league that it might raise an ngitation through tho length and breadth of the land , and in this indirect manner might make Itself f . It in this house . Well , do you want to get rid of this system of agitation ? Do you want to prevent these leagues aud associations out of doors ? T > n you must bring this honse into harmony with tbe opinions of the people . ( Hear , hear . ) Give the means to the people of making themselves felt In this house . Aro you afraid of losing anything hy it ? Why , tho very triumphs you have spoken of—the ti lumphs achieved out of doors—by Reformers , have been the oalvation of ^ this country , ( Hear , hear ) They are jour glorj and
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exultation at tho present moment . But is this not a most cuui ' . rous machine «—a House of Commons , by » ficlioa said to be tho repres ntatlves of tbo peop le , meeting lure tad professing to do the people ' s work , while the people out of doors are obliged to organise themselves in lauguos and aseociatiuns to compel you to do that work ? ( Hear , hear . ) It is not with a view of overturning our institutions that I advocate these reforms la our representative system . It is because I believe that wo may carry out those reforms from time to time , by discussions in this hou-e , tbat I take my part la advocating them in this legitimate manner . They must be effected In this mode , or they must bo offered , as has baon tbo case on tin continent , by bayonets , by muskets , and in the streets . Now , I am no advocate for
fcuch proccodin . 's . ( Henr , hear . ) I conceive that any men of political standing in this country—any membtra of this house for instance—who join in advocating tho extension of the enffiago at this moment f . ro tho real conservators of peace . So long as the great mass of the people of this country eeo tbat there are mm in earnest who aro advocating a groat reform like this , tbsy will wait , and wait patiently . They may waat more ; but so long as they believe that men are honestly and rtso . lutely striving f < r reform , and will not bo satisfied until they get it , the peace find saftty of thin countrywhich I valuo as much cs any Conservative— -are gua . ranteed . ( Hear , hear . ) My object in supporting this motion re , that I may bring to bear upon the legislation of this house those virtues and that talent which have
characterised tho middle and industrious douses of this country . If you talk of your aristocracy and your tra . ditiors , end compel me to talk of the middle and Industrious classes , I say it is to them that the I'lory of this eoantry is owing , You havo had jour government of ariutocricy and tradition ; and tho worst thing tbat ever bofelthiB country has been Its government for tbe last century ond a half . All that has bam none to ehivate tho country haa boon the work of the middl - and indaa . trious classes . Whether in literature , in arts , In science , In COmincrcw , Or In enterprise—ail has be > -n done by the middle and industrious classes ; and it is because I wish to bring such virtue , such Intelligence , such Indaitry , such frugality , such economy into this house , that I support the motion of the hon . member for Moatroao . ( ' Hoar , hear , ' and cheers . )
Mr UbQCUABt obntrved that some years ogg psrlia . ment had a lopt ; . d a Reform Bi'l , which was to remedy all tho grievances of tha country . They could now UoU back upon the experience o ? tbat measure ; and i ; np . pe- > red that , instead of ameliorating the evils it was intended to relieve , Its effect bad been to augment them , A failu . 'O more complete had never been exhibited in the history of any civilised oouatry . It had beea aaserted tonight , as an argument for farther reform , tbat that house , in a financial point of view , had become useless . Now , It appeared to him ( Mr Urquhart ) that that argument told against the proposition of the hon . merobsr fi ? r Montrose ; for It amountel to this—that expenditnre , instead of having been ri >< Wod , had been Increased by a reformed Honse of C . immons , and th = ) t
then-fare a new reform was requisite , The boo . movrr of this resolution ( Mr Hume ) afforded an apt illustration of the old mazim , ' Ttmpora mutanftir . ' In the nnreformed parliament that hon . member was most strecnous in demanding economical reforms , and in en deavonring to diminish to tbe smallest amount tbe expenditure requisite for the public service . But when had that hon . gentleman reified hia voice in therefc-men house to urge such sweeping reductions of the public expenditure ? The bon . member for Montrose was one who called for the bill , tbo whole bill , and nothing but the bill ; but had he ever been able with a reformed parliameEt to raiao as successfully a ? he had done before tbe question of the public expendl . ture ? The hon . gentleman had then the co
operation of Mr Conning , who said , ' the condition of the country Imperatively demanded a reform of our finances ;' a » d also of the right hon , gentleman the member for Tamwortb , who expressed his determination to institute an inquiry into thew hole extent of our naval and mill , tary establishments with a view to a reduction ; Mr Hosklsson likewise expressed himself in favour of reduction ; the consequence wee , that in four years no less than and £ 6 . 000 , 000 of taxation was reduced . Tbe public mind , howevtr , was not satisfied , and then arose the cry for reform as the means of still further redactions Of tho public expenditure . Another ministry came Into power , and with them reform ; and down till 1835 the system of reduction was continued . In tbat year tbe lowest point of expenditure was reached ; and from that time a totally different line of conduct was pursued bythathouso
and the government . Tbe consequence hsdbeen , thatti ? less a sum than £ 40 , 000 , 000 had been paid by this conn try sinco 1830 . in addition to what would have beenc ^ . pended had the system of reduction which was pre viously in operation been followed out ; and had the re . commendation of the committee of 1817 bees acted upon , afurtherreductienof £ 40 , 000 . 000 would have betn tiperifnoed by tho country Judging it worse than insanity to introduce a new Reform Bill after the experience they had had of th' ; old Reform Bill , he should move— ' That experience has shown , that change in tbe coB & ttvuttoft of parUanunt has failed to obtain the ends for which it was desirable , and with which it was originally conjoined- —? iz ., non-interference and retrenchment . ' iir Ahbtev seconded the amendment .
Mr Locke King said that whatever grounds for complaint existed in 1832 existed at present in as great force . We had profite . J by the French revolution of 1830 , and had gained the ReJorro Act of 1832 and other great and beneficial measures , France had then made a change ia its government merely nominal . It bad been stationary , whilst we had been safely and steadily progrcs . sing . Again wa must make a step in advance , and that step must be by adding another schedule A to another Reform Bill . Mr O'Connor said that , connected as he had been for many years with the larger question which had been incidentally brought into the discussion of the motion of the hon . member for Montrose , he thought he might claim the indulgence of the house
while he gave his opinion on the question before them . He might have risen under some difficultyat least under greater difficulties than he now experienced , if it had not been for the admission of the noble lord ( Lord J . Russell ) in expressing his determination to resist the proposition of the hon . member for Montrose . It was an admitted fact that every new political party , every new political question , had to go through a certain ordeal . The promoters of every new political question were first laughed at and scoffed at , then they were reviled and persecuted , then the principle was considered , then it was deliberated upon and discussed , and then it was legislated upon . Now , he confessed he felt greatly relieved from embarrassment when he found
the noble lord declaring in the speech he had de . Iivered on this subject , that he preferred the odious principles of Chartism to the minor principles of the resolution of the hon . member for Montrose . It gave tiro and those who had laboured with him a guarantee that he had not laboured in vain . He felt that the speech of the noble lord , although made on the Ministerial side of the house , was intended for a book of reference when he should change to the other side . ( Hear , hear . ) The hon . and learned member for Reading ( Sergeant Talfourd ) had delivered a speech on this subject which had been called an abld a poetical , an astounding , an astonishing speech . For himself , he had been most struck with the ignorance which had been displayed
by the hon . and learned member . ( Laughter . ) The hon . and learned gentleman had rested upon three points . He had referred to the case of the artisan in his attic or cellar , incapable of supporting his family , and had asked—would you trust that man with a vote ? In answer to that he would say that if the want of that vote disabled that artisan from supporting his family , or if in bis opinion it placed him in that situation , he was the very man whom he ( Mr O'Connor ) would enfranchise . The hon . and learned member had also asHed them—would you enfranchise the ignorant people of the country ? That was precisely the argument which was used in 1780 , when Charles James Fox and the Duke of Richmond propounded views exactly the same as
the People ' s Charter now ; and with respect to this charge of ignorance , he would ask , who were to blarae for it , the people who had been left to grow up in ignorance , or the government , whose duty it was to educate them ? ( Hear . ) He contended that an extension of political rights ought to precede national education . Place a man in the position of political responsibility , and ignorance became a crime . The hon . and learned gentleman had also said , had we not had an instance in some nei ghbouring foreign countries of the disadvantage of adopting the principles now proposed ? He ( Mr O'Connor ) would answer , that they bad had instances of the folly and disadvantage of postponing these principles until it became necessary to establish them by physical force instead of moral power . ( Hear , hear . ) The hon . member for Montrose had said that the measure which he proposed had been adopted by the working classes . He ( Mr
O'Con-| nor ) would hold himself unworthy of a seat in that j liouse—ho would consider himself unworthy of the ; position he held with the working classes , if lie did ' not give that assertion the fullest and the most positive contradiction . Although he meant to vote { for the resolution of the hon . member , he begged to : caution the lion , member as well as the noble lord not to postpone the larger and more extended measure till the wrong moment . The hon . mem- ; ber's -motion had been analysed in the course of the j discussion ; and some hon . members had stated their preference for one point and some for another . Well , he would tell the house the point to whieh lie , atlached the most importance , and that was Annual Parliaments . He confessed that , " after what he had J seen in that house , he would prefer Annual Parliaments wiih the present constituencies , to Universal Suffrage with Septennial Parliaments . He begged to observe that , with the exception of Vote by
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Ballot , every single point or tho Chaucr , ; , .: one time formed part of the constitution . Aiu ,:,.,, par . liaments were at one time the practice in this < -. ) U n . try . Theprincipl ; of ' No Property Qiialiti ^ Uon was also an old one . Formerly , also , the ^ - VV a Universal Suffrage , and the reason for aboii ; ing that was stated in the preamble of the act to be- the feudi and quarrels which had sprung up an . ji ;^ the aristocracy . Formerly there existed elector ! (] is . tricts , and it was well-known that merali .-c- ; of . the house were paid by their constituents ; so ilut five out of tbe Sis Points of the Charter were or . ¦> ihe law of the land . The noble lord ( J . Rtiss . ' . aid
that all that the people wanted was the besi . •) .- ip tion of government ; hut how were they t > K" it How were they to accomplish that object , ii i . uey were not represented in that house ? V , ; , ; ., i he hon . and learned memIjer for Reading spoki i . f . he want of education among the people , he shrmi-. : ave borne in mind that it . was Mot necessary th :: ' v . > le classes should he educated , hut that it was .-.. 1 -nt if a system of instruction was partly inflismi ,-i . ' . -ilg them ; and if they could distinguish be my . a proper and improper representative , they \ w-r , , ; ifi . ciently educated for the franchise . The jjiv ... / . of this country had shown for many years that t ' . < -. lesired reform . They had he « n told by the r .. . ' ., ' . . > n . baronet the member for Harwich ( Sir J . II . A '<)' - ' ; e )
and by the hon . gentleman the secretary v , he Admiralty , that taxation without re < . , ¦ < .. ta . tion was unjust , and that the people wtu . he source of all legitimate power . But the n ' . ' . ' i ! . « , ird now said that they ware satisfied with Iho }> . c-snt form of government . When the Reform Ci" LiWever , was carried , they were promised p < i .. retrenchment , and reform , and the' - expected , i , -oicipatiou in the social advantages which v . < v ,-. > « ld out as tbe consequences of liiat measure , ii . :.. at they had been deceived . All those promiMS oi ^ ^ h . wsges , cheap bread , and plenty to do , roas i f ; ad plumb pudding , had turned out to be fallac o ¦ .: ¦ .-, id now the people would take the matter into ' . i ^ . ir own hands . The aristociacv on one sh ' ¦ < .. ' -lie
house had deceived the people once , and llii' I ' iK . 'lle classes on the other side had deceived thn :: ^ . \ ' -ie . ( A laugh . ) They had not shared in the p'Tiini .-ied benefiis of free trade , and unless the gov ( ' ! H ! i .. jiit were prepared to carry out the principles of f'ee trade , and consult , not the interests of tlo . ie v-ho made their profits out of the diminution of v ^ . es , but of those who made their profits by legitimate trade , they would find themselves , some fi : ie running , in the situation of the French government , "ihe right hon , baronet , the member for Tarawnrfr , had laid the foundation of free trade , but his prir . clples had not been carried ou * . A strong case wae rr . .. de out for some reform at least b y the unsea'itij .- of " so
many members for bribery , and by the fact that cut of the agricultural constituency there were lOt . 000 tenant ? at will , who were as much bound to vole / or their landlord , as if they had been slaves pnrU' . aM ' . d in the market . But , ns he was saying , in- ? . !> : de had not yet been carried out , and the v ; or ! .-. ng classes inquired where their share of free trado vas . For the last six years they had been very pouM '/ le , though reduced to a state of unparalleled iinvi : ss , and why , then , should the bouse hesit . iu to enfranchise them ? He found no di .. ; io -: tion on their part to commit violence , but au anxious desire to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow . He should vote for the motion of t \ : ;\ on .
member for Montrose as a choice of evils , his : oposition being good so far as it went , and ccruinly better than nothing at all , but he could noi accept it as a final settlement of the question . He . wiAild not abate one jot of his energy or enthusiasm in the cause of the people , and if thehon . mtm ' iii . 'r ' s motion were carried to-night , ie should advocate all the principles of the Charter to-merrow . Wuilst under excitement he charged the hon . member for Montrose with impropriety in having withdraw :, his motion ; and the hon . gentleman , the memlvr for the West Riding charged him with having ir-iic an attack on the hon . gentleman . He ( Mr O'C'inucr )
begged to disclaim all intention of leroenv ; !> ut there was a determination evinced by the hon . member for the West Riding , to rally the mMdle classes around him on this question . He would not , however , enter further into the question , but would content himself with the observations he had made , declaring that however , on the other ( ihe government ) side ef the house , hon . gentlemen might vaaintain ttek principle of free trade a \ ul no surrender , and however hon . gentlemen on that ( the Opposition ) side mkht maintain their principles of protection and no surrender , he n'snthrough persecution , through good report and evil report—would maintain his own principles , and no surrender .
Mr M . Milnis did not think that the ballot v . ould produce any great change In the composition oi that house ; bat the division of Great Britain into n = ' . < - * . \ zotoral districts wonld Introduce a very portentou ? timn ^ Ci It would subtract from 'he influence of the coun : r > and add to tbo influence of tho t ^ wns , and at prcs u . he towns had no right to complain of their want of u Alienee , as thej had carried free Trade end the repeal of the Corn Laws against iho wishes and resistance Of : oe agricultural interest . He should therefore vote nginiiat the motion . There was no imnudiata grievance which called for it ; but the grtat events which had recently occurred in Europe must find an echo hero . Ii uv . ry Frenchman , German , and Italian , bad bis eharo in the political arrangement of hi * country , a claim for a
uuailar rower would be heard here , aud we must be prepared to meet it . Ia his opinion , pince tho IWorm Bill tha towns had no tight to complain ot their influencd in tfcat house ; and , he believed , tbat there was no s : ienjj popular dtBlre which would not make itself npreponted and accomplished In that hr < use . No doubt a preSrenee was given to persona of distinguished birth and rank in that houte , for the peoph . of England loved tho nr ; 3 tooraey—Ihey loved a lord . ( A laugh ) Ev .. n in that house they showed an habltunl deference to a member of the aristocracy— ( laughter)— and from tbat ho in . ferred that that home wasafair representation of tha people . He had stated that he did not com . id « r ' . i ; at » uch a grievance was made out ao justified th .-c ' u . iOge that was asked fer by this motion , and he should therefore give his voteagainst it .
Mr S . Herbeet would not , in the discussion of a question affecting the character of the house and ihe competency of carrying on tho public business , add to any chMgo that had been Draught flgalcstit , by uarje 6 « . 9 fetily extending the speeches In its debates . His only ohjiol in speaking at all was to express hia wish that his vote should be considered as distinct from the votes to trO £ 0 who were of opinion that tho reprokentation of this coua « try was perfect , or that it was impossible to make any improvementlnit . It wasunnecessaryfcrhimtogotonny length into the question , it having been already eo ably argued , and by none more powerfully than by the coble lor J at tho head of the government . ( Hear . ) It waTj with great satisfaction that he heard the noble lord give
us the doctrine of finality . It was also with pleasure that he hoard tho noble lord state that he did not approve of uniformity of suffrage . Now , the otyect , or rather the necessary accident of all representation beinp to secure good government , it first became them to Inquire how for tbe pre = ent system was calculated to carry on tbe business of tbe country ; and ¦ whether er not , under the present system , the different classes of the people en . joyed a sufficient share of tbe representation , Believing that the representation was not sufficiently varied , ho regretted that tbe different modes of franchise that ex . leted before tbe Reform Bill bad been abulbhed . He regretted very much ( as we understood ) , that the franchise commonly known by the name of' poUwallopers '
should have been abolished . It gave the working classes a feeling that they were directly represented , and It diminished the tendency , on the part of tbe people , to what was termed hero-worship , —tho devotion to some demagogue who had hitherto been an object of admiration to the people , and i . who had spoken to them of the wonderful things he would effect when ha should be 8 = nt to Parliament . By the admission of men to Parliament who Were more upon a level with tho working classes , it would induce tha working classes theaigtlvos not to pay so much attention to tho delusive promises tbat were held out to them . He thought the hon . and learned member for Nettlnghaui ( Mr P . O'Connor ) who lately addresitd the house , when he went to render an
account of hie stewardship , fleeing that he wonld have been five years In immediate proximity to tho Thames , would find mote difficulty in explaining to the satisfaction of his constituents why ho had not ret it on fire , than if ha had never boon a member of tbat house , and w . ro foi tbe first time announcing a ' . hs would do for them if sent to parliament ; but he wished to call tbe attention of the house for a moment to what bad been stated by tho hon . gentleman the member fer Alontroso , that England had hitherto been in the van of liberal institutions , but that now ehe was in the rear ; and tho hon . gentleman added that those who acted with him had for their i . bjaot a reduction of the pubiio establishments , and a rigid system of economy . This the hon . gentlcu'su contended was the legitimate object of a democratic government ; hut he ( Mr S . Herbert ) would
asl ; , had tlmt object been effected in Franco ! dinar , bi'nr , ) On iho contrary , they had increased the army to no kss than thirty battalions , and with the National Guards , they had nn army of 320 , 000 men , a larger force than ever before existed in the lime ef peacf . Tho hon . number for Middlesex hed oprkonefa system of jobbing being carried on by the present mode in whieli the House of Commons was constituted and urged this as an argument in favour of an extension of tho suffrage . He also adverted to tho corrupt practices Ttbleh prevailed in Prance previous to the recent revolution , but he ( Mr S . Herbert ) would ask whether those practices had ceased ? So far from It that it » as proved that the editor of the NatiohaIt M . Marrest , tu » printer and publisher , divided and held places emong » t themselves nmounting to £ 40 . 000 per BBBiaa . Now to England tbo pecph wo ° W prtfw «»"
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), July 15, 1848, page 3, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/ns2_15071848/page/3/
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