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nranity—points on ¦ w hich he "would not now enter ; bnt aboTe all , he was satisfied tint the subYersion of all the great establishments of the country must inevitably ensue , and that to grant the prayer of these petitioners voulij in itself tend more particularly to the disadrantage , poverty , and suffering of this class more than any other remedy that could be proposed . Entertaining these opinions—having expressed tfeem by his vote on a fotmer evening—seeing that nothinghad since occurred to indues him to doubt the soundness of the conclu sions to "which he had then arrived—differing from the Eon . Member for Leicester , he should to-night adhere
to the course he bad then taken , and , however , reluctantly , firmly but decidedly resist the motion of the Hon . Member for Finsbury . He ( Sir J . Graham ) -was satisfied the concession wonld produce the most disastrous results to the ¦ working people ; one of -which would be the rf-W"g them believe tint doubt and hesitation existed ¦ within those vralls with respect to the remedies they in their petition proposed . He was satisfied , that so far from affording a remedy , they would be fousd to be disastrous in the extreme ; and , entertaining that opinion , it would be his duty certainly to resist the motion of the Hon . Member for picsbury .
Sir J . EASTHOPE rose to explain . He had been quite misunderstood by the Right Hon . Baronet the Secretary of the Home Department . He ( Sir J . Eastfcopej tbocght tbathehad guarded himself against misconception by stating , that on a former occasion he had felt that if he voted with the Hon . Member for Rochdale he should have approved those propositions in the Charter to which he was opposed , but that on the pre-Bent occasion he considered that be "was asied to permit the petitioners to expound their own prater , and to show its relevancy to their own distress . If he were called upon , as the Right Hon . Baronet assumed , row to affirm any of the sentiments contained in the Charter , he should have adhered to xhe course which he had taken before .
3 Jr . MACAT 71 AT eaid , he was anxious to offer a few words on the present occasion , as he was not present in bis place when a simi ar motion had coma before the House , when he was aware that the absence of many gentlemen connected with the late Administration had been stated to be the resn ' - t of design . Now , he could answer for himself that he was absent on that occasion in consequence of indisposition . His Koble Friend , whose absence he new again deplored , was , by accident , not in his place ; and he ( Mr . Macaulay ) thought be could with confidence say that not a single member of the late Gorernment , who was present , withheld the expression of their sentiments from any unworthy motive whatever—iiea ? , hear .. ) He should attempt to imitate , as far as he conH the proper trmper shewn
by the Right Hoe . Gentleman who had just sat down . ; sad if he ( Mr . Miicaulay ) should be betrayed for a moment into any departure from that temper , ao person who knew him would , he was sure , attribnte it to any want of kindness or good feeling towards those millions whose petition was now under the consideration of the House . He could not sanction , by his Tote , the motion cf the Hon . Member for Finsbury—( hear , hear . ; The Hon . Member had Etaped ids motion with very considerable skill , he had soaped it in such a uxanner as to giv-e him iMr . ilacaulaj ) a " very fair plea so to vote fcr it , if he wished tc > trade the . discharge of Ms duty ) , and yet to be able U > say to his Conservative constituents , " I never said a word in favour of "Ciiivsrsa ! Saffra ^ e , or those other charges f jr
which the petitioners called ;* and at the same time the Hoe . Member for Finsbury had so shaped his motion as to oSl-r him : Mt . ilaeaulay ) an opportunity cf saying to a large assemMy of Chartiste , " On that occasion , when your petition wis before the House of Commons , and the motion was made that you be called in and be heard at the bar , and when that motion was opposed by the Government , I voted with you . " But he ( i ! r . iltcaulsj ) thcugfc : this questlc-n to important that he should not discharge his duty if be had recourse to any such evasion , and therefore he felt cospellei to meet the mstion with a direct negative—ibes . r , hear . ) For it seesed to him , if the House dt-jcited from its ordinary and general ru " e cf not hearing persons at the bar , that the petitioners might TmSerstanvl , in all
reasonable acceptation of tucb a cot cession , that though the House was not decidedly favourable te , yet Hoc lumbers had not fully made up their minds to resist what they asked . Now , his \ ilr . Macauby ' S ! mind Was so made up , and he conceived that the pttitioners would have a right to complain cf him if he were to elnde this question by voting fcr the motion of his Hon . Friend , and then on any future occasion he gave a distinct negative to every one of the c ' anses of any iM which might bo framed upon the basis of this petition . He did ifciii , if he adoptt-d such a course , they "would have some reason to complain of disingenousness and unfairness on hi 3 part . That accusation , if he could avoid it , they should not have an opportunity of bringing against him
—( hear , htaj . ) He was sure it was very far from his imagination to eritlcise with a ^ y severity or malignity the language contained in this petition , but to ths essence of it he must refer when the question was , vrh&Kkx or net the persons from whom it had emulated Ehould be called in to be beard in support of it . The petition demanded that this House " Do immediately , without alteration , deduction , or addition , p ^ &sintoalaw the document entitled the ' People ' s Charter ; ' " and he coEeeived be should Lot deal fairly with tke hcuse if he consented to call the petitioners in only to > e heard , as tad been suggested , on the snlgrct of the existing public distress . If any Hon . iLember motri fuT an inquiry into that distress ana the Kitans cf remedying it—if any Hon . Jleaiber tbonant the hsatt-rtuding statements
wluch had been made to-night ought to be substantiated ar , d proved before the H ^ nse , he for one would not oppose it ; nay , he would Tote for it . Bat be contended , thzt when he found a petition demanding a particular law to bs passed immediately " without alteration , dednttjon , or sdditlcn /* and then to represent it as merely desiring an inquiry into the public distress , was really postering with the question—( hear ; Kffw he might , n- ^ ch more easily than any other gentleman in the House , consent to give hi 3 support to the motion of the Hen . Member for Finsbury , for there " were parts of the Charter to which he was favourable ; in truth , out cf all its s ? x points there was only ene to which he had an extreme and unmitigated hostility . He had already vof « j in favour of tin ? ballot , and as to the property qualification of members to EerTe in Parliament , he most cordially concurred with
the jjct ' ttlocers . Ee had always thought , that whi ^ e th = ie wa 3 a property qualification required to fuim a constituent befiy , a property qBalincation . for a rej-reseEtaiivs w ^ a superfluous . He could not undrrsKu-d why it was that the members for Edinburgh and Glasgow Were not required to have a property quilificatioii , and tic&e for M&x 5 iebone asd ii 2 Bcb . esi . fcr were required to have a property quaii-£ crJon ; if the prircifle Were sound , it ought to be cniTeiEai—if exscund , it ought to bs abandoned . — ( hear , hcor . i Neither did he think any Hon . Member could szsid cp hi favour of that on ConserratiTe grcrrdE . It was 1 : 0 part of the old consritntion—it tras not a pitt cf tbe reforms ms . de at the time of the Re-Toiut ' oE , but Ioc s lifter the- Revolution it had been in . trc-iuced by a lad GjTerament , and passed by a bad ParliuE ^ nt , for the distinct purpose cf defeating the ReTcliUon , axr " . f-. r ' . hi exclusion of the Protestant B 3-L ^ : ' _ -i ! to : £ * ' . Lr .-. si—; bear , hear . } He was sgainsl asr-o ^ : PiirliamiL-. s . Lut at the same time he was ready to sgree , : o a crnah : LXi-. st , to meet the wishes of the pc ^ le hy limitln . ; ice duration cf Piirliaiter . ts . He did ro : co to tie minor points contained ia the p = tit .-i :, btei ^ se thcte was one point so important—a poiiii "shlch , Ja his judgment formed tte very tbstnee of : L = Clsrtir—which , if withheld , would hife the e 5 " ct •_! crrLt tg agitation , ai-d which , if grant-d 7 mi ' . ' -eici r .: t c ^ e straw wttther the otiitrs Were gristed c-r :. ot ; tz .-l that poir . t was "Universal Suffrage , "Without ; -. r 7 quiliScation of property at all . liaviDg a diciued Gpu-ion tLat such a change as tre corcession of TTrJTcrsal Sofira ^ e wculd be utterly fatal to the best r _ tiru-ts cf the c ^ un tiy Lt large , he fit it his duty manfully to declare be could not consent to hold oat the l =: _ ii tope that he cculd ever , under any cirenm-Etarccs , * support such a change—chear , hear . ;—Thb rc ^ -iiS npen wLica he entertained that opinion he -ncujd state as sio : tly as he coald . He thought , in thi £ ist X'i ^ c ? . that the proposed iccuiry ,
constituted 2 pici-umptivn against the chatge wiiicli was prc-Gu ^ = J l ' j the iiucr-i 3 ill—be did not say this en the rr ' . usd cf ni \ iV ' . y—he entenainrd ro cponion of that i : it- H- ^ dn- . l . ttu that violent atsd frt . quect changts "Berc z . ci cii n ;" -. ' . e ; bat at the same time he must say , that every chrui-e prop : tea m ^ st b : judged ' 7 its own meilts . Ee - _ .- - Ioau 5 by no tie . and he was ready to p ^ is isj- le ^ Is- 'tire refena is-h ; ch he believed wouTd coL- ; - ; ce to " tLs putlic interest . He thonrht it was a niustuttd arguteeut £ 5 .- ' nst a c ' nance of this sort on the I ^ t cf tiur-i v > o c-sztrzU-d tLenis ^ lvi 3 with S 3 jing thit they c " -: -: iciid the ctarze v : ot ; id be inconsiitiiit ¦ wiih the c . rt : nel cx ' iiteicc- of the monarchy and ths Bc-ass or Lotus . Aiihcurrt a faithful znA lojal subject of her Jliijiity , and faTourible to admjxtsre of the sriit-crat ' c " e " .-: sent in the conrtitatioa of ih ? country , Et -H he r ^ urt eorsidtr ths t tbs moti&Tchy and ths axistc-crccj- —ire i . yt •> . e ends , but the means of govtrom&nt — i ^ ir , Lc-ar ^ Hj tad tco ? ra covernmente in countriis "watra niiVnti the i ^ orarcliy wa 3 tertdltr . Ty nor the arlitccnicj hereditary , and ret those countries had prcspcr = d ; Lat he Lilkvcd that Tniversal Snff :-age vculd be fatal to all the objects for which a monarchy existed , or even a wtll-orJered republic existed , and teat it was fe ^ palle of coexisting with the extension of civilization . K _ - cocceive .-i that civilizition rested upon the security cf ; Le Govrmiaent . It could not be ntcesay ia an a £ = cELb ! v like that for him to go through arguments in rappcrt " cf that proposition , or to allude to the vast cxiirictca -Rhich led to that result . Everybody well krit-w , thst where property was insecure
it was not in the power of the finest soil , of the finest dirnr . te , cf the mc ^ t moral snd intellectual constitntion of tke people , to prevent a country sinking into barbarisE—^ hi : e , on the other hand , where property was secure , it was scarcely in the power of any &ovemment to prevent a nation coing on prosperously . If these frils bad t ^ rfen found 5 n the Govtrument of the ccuctry , tte stronger was tke s . Tgumect rn-i ^ e out-The progress which this tetmtry had made in the midst of all the mitgoTernnjeEt to v > hichshe li&d frcin time to been exposed , showed how irreiistible was the power of th 3 0 T ! . at riirci ' ple if security to property . Howler the ? 'Jisi £ ier miftt havs EquardrirLd the public rsvir . ee ? , ttili with iecurity ta prt-r = rty , tie labour , taduFtry , asd er . terjrlse cf the cinctry found resourcs ? - - T »' hateTer might be tte cost of vrzr , the
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same means with security to property repaired faster than war could destroy , and if that were the fact , all classes had the deepest interest in the security of property , and the labouring classes had that interest in the highest degree . Following that principle , he conceived tha supreme government of the country could never ba intrusted to any claes , with regard to which there did not exist the moral certainty that they never would commit any great or systematic violation of the sanctity of property—( hear , hear ) . Had he that assurance with respect to the petitioners was the question he iMr . Macaulay ) now asked ? Had he the assurance that if the Government were placed in the hands of the majority of the people of thi 3 country , without pecuniary qualification , they would respect the sanctity
cf property ?—ibear , hear ) . He thought not ; and if lie were compelled to give a reason , he would , without noticing with any severity the indecorous language it contained , take the petition which Ms Hon . Friend the Member for Finsbury had caused to be printed with the roles . And what was that petition ? It was signed by nearly 3 , 500 , 000 of the people , and must be considered as the declaration of the intentions of that vast-body which , if the Charter were passed , would become the sovereign © f the country—as a declaration of ibe intention of tbess who would theni in ell probability , return the majority of the representatives sent to that House , Now , if he was so to consider this petition , it was impossible to look without considerable anxiety on such passages as these : — " Your petition era
complain that they are enormously taxed to pay the interest of what is termed the National Debt—a debt amounting at present to £ 880 , 000 , 000 , being only a portion of the enennons amount expended in cruel and expensive wars , for the suppression of all liberty , by men not authorised by the people , and whe , consequently , had no right to tax posterity for the outrages committed by them upon mankind . " ( " Hear , hear , " from Mr . Hume , Mr . Duncombe , and oihers . ; Was be ( Mr . Macaulay ) reaily to understand that cheer as an indication of an opinion that there was no right in the national creditor ? "Was he to take it fta an expression of opinion that national bankruptcy would be just and politic . ' If he was not 80 to understend it , he was utterly at a loss to comprehend what the passage meant .
For his own part , he conceived it was impossible to " make , a distinction between the right of the fundholder in dividends and the right of the landed proprietors in the land , it appeared , however , that the petitioners rr . ada no such distinction , for they declared against the monopoly oi land . It was impossible to misunderstand the meaning of these wor 3 s in the petition— " That your petitioners deeply deplore the existence of any kimi of monopoly in this nation ; and , whilst they urequivoca liy condemn the levying of any tax upon the necessaries cf-life . and upon those articles principally required by the labouring classes , they are also sensible that the abolition < f any one monopoly will never unshackle labour "from its misery , until the people possess that power under which oil monopoly and
odjressicn must cease . The petitioners respectfully mention the existing monopolies of land . " Was that , or was it rot , intended to mean landed property ; was it not , in fact , following np ths declaration before made as to the funds by a dfclaration that land property oucht to c * -ise to txist ? They then went on to complain of the monopolies of patents , and the moncp-olie 3 " which they conceived to arise from the fixed capital of a man in the machinery of his mill , or in a machine of bis own invention . Tfeey then mentioned the monopolies in travelling and transit ; and he firmly believed their meaning to be the confiscatioii of all railways rnd canals . It was hardly necessary for him to go further , for , if he understood the petition right , he btiieved it to be a declaration that the remedies for
every evil under which this country suffered were to be found in a great and sweeping confiscation of all property— ihear , hear . ) Now , believing that to be the case , he . was firmly convinced that the effect of any Euch measure would be not only to ruin the rich , but to make the poor still poorer ; and that such a result would press more heavily on the labourin g thr . n upon any- other class in the community . "While he censured the doctrines contained in tfee petition , he had no charge to bring against the great body of persons who had signed it : so far from speaking or thinking ill of their conduct , he did not blame them in any degreethey bad ccted as it was natural they should act . The petition was a sort of cry of existing distress , which desigr-ing men had put into a bad and pernicious form
—\ heaiVi If so , was the House to go out of its ordinary eonrse cf proceeding , in order to' give this petition a reception of peculiar distinction ? Let it be rememhered , that Hon . Members of that , Honse had ail -the advantages of education , and were very seldom tried by calamities half as severe as the petitioners had , it wa 3 admitted , undergone . That Hon . Members had hardly observed the operations of their own minds , whtn they had suffered from sickness , from vexations of any kii : d , from pecuniary difficulties , or other forms " of adversity winch happened to everybody , and they failed to remember how unreasonable such things made- them , and how ready they were to catch at what they could haTdJv hope would relieve , and to incur a greater evil for the sake of present and immediate indulgence ; therefore , he could not
consider it a strange thing that the poor man , who , ' saw h s wife grow thinner every day—who heard : his children cry for food hs could not give them , should embrace that which he was taught to believe would give him relief . Such a man would easily be impo . ed upon from the want of edecarion , owin # , parily te hi 3 own condition , and partly to the ne-, ' gltctjhs ( Mr . Macaulay ) must say , of the Govern- j men » of ihis country . ( . HeaT , hear . ) To those fctii- ! tleinen who cried " Hear , " he would say , " Granting that education would remedy these cnls , shull we i not wait until education is given—&hall we not v ? ait ! until we see whether education , will make them j understand that the preservation of the sanctity j of property was just as important to them as to the ; richest man in the country , or thall we pu : into j their . "hands the power not only to ruin ourselves ; bui themselves 1 " ( Hearhearhear . ) NoLhin ^!
, , could be more natural than that 3 when looking at the inequality of stations in this country , their minds ' should be excited , and that- when they were told by j designing men that if they had the power in th--: r own hands they might at any time cave themselves from all tha calamities to which they were no . v exposed by going to the lands , to the fund ? , to rruchiiiery ;' to raiiroads , and to all those things which they caiJ monopoly , but which he ( Mr . Macaulay ) : called piopmy , it was natural they should be darrived' H * born in them no mor >! unkind fcen : ; ir
than he did ty a sick mac , who in the height of fever might a .-k him for a draught of cold water , which j would be fatal to him at the outset—he had no more j ill-fevuiDg towards them than ha had to those who , j when he was in India duiissg a scarcity , du ? ired the ; granaries-to be thrown open to them . However great the suffering in the cue case or the distress in j we other , ho would Lot administer the cold water , aeitLcr would ho give the key of the f . Tjnaries to ' the half-starved population , because ia the first ca ? e it wouid be fatal , and in the- other it would only give j temporary and delusive relief , to be followed by p . n enormous increase of eti ! . No persou here cuJd J seiioi ^ iy entertain a doubt that Fuch a spoliation of ;
properly as ibat to which thepetiiun pointed wou . u t cea sericus evil to the people , and an audition to ] cil th&r other culsmnir-s . ( Hear , hear ) We ]] , ( then , if these were the things for the sake of v ? h ; ch ; they asked for the Charrer , upon what principle was j it that he should consent to put into tia-ir bends the I power to efilci all these evils to ihe country and to j themselves ? The only arguments to be used in ; iavour of the House tii ! er ; ain : Dg the proposition would be , that really when th' - power came into their hands they wouid u .-e it with greater caution , j Surely that would be , in ihe firs ; p iace , a very strange reason for treating th ' i 3 petition , with pecv .- ] liar respect , because k -. id not remain the deliberate , views oi those who scut it ; ana , in ihe second place , ' it was contrary to tuuian nature that persons askiDg
for great concessions should put the . ir demand m ' terms kss acceptable to those who had the power to grant or withhold it ; that they made their demand more odious than , ii' ih » -y obtained it , iheir practice ' would be found to be ; thut they pointed cu : to us ; the evil constq ^ e nccs tha : would fo . ' low from grant- j iiii their demand , which evil consrqnenct--s would not follow in reaihy , and which ; hey never medi- ' taled . But , "it mi ^ lt be b-j ' , their power would cot be h > u = ? . d . How wis it po » ible to doubt that ' power in the hanus of sura mon would be u ? ea fV-r j evil ? See what had been h ^ d out to them . Every- person ¦ oho h < ard h : m cauii ; be aware of the kind c ; , meais which had been used . There had been a sys-1 tematic attempt made to represent the Government i as able to do ior the working classes that which no ] Government ; ever had been or would be able to do : '
that which-ro wise Government ever wouia aueirpt ' to do ; that which if a : * y Government did a : temp * . ] to do , they wouid c-. ' 1 ' . ss than their duty , ' ihe workjug classes bad becn reasoned with as if the Govern- ; mentSvasrcsiiuuied ' thai instead of thcpeople support- ; ir ; 4 the Government , the Governinent were bcuuu to ' support the people ; as if the Government had tcnie , means of never failing supply at their commandsome vasi fund of wealth with "which to dispel poverty from the land ; as if , like the ruiers of ancient times , j the Government could compel waters from the rocks j and call down bread from heaven , or as if they could
perform over again at pleasure the miraculous phe- j nomecon of the self-multiplying loaves—( hear , hear ) . i Informed as the people were in these doctrines , was ; k possible to believe that the moment Parliament ] gave them absolute supreme power—for lei h be ob- 1 served this was what was nsked for—that moment the people would forsake and forget their doctrines ; and principles ! The petitioners and those who &up- j ported ihe : r views in the House of Commons talked ] of . class legislation at the very time they were for , i'ivin ^ to one class exclusive absolute power . The effect of granting the petition would be to put all piop-Ttv in every city , in every village , in every ' part cf " ihe country at tbo fee - of the labouring class . . Lock at the effect , in this point of -rew , of agreeing ; to ths proposition for Universal S-ffragc . The Hon .: Members lor Bath an- ; Mcutrcse , ( . Mr . Roebuck and : Mr . Hume ) , th ^ ii - h th * rj ojn-eed en the principle of ; Univcr-al Sc&sri-j w ••; . d oppose , ho w ? s coufident , fi-ra ^ v a ? rVo-uid " hini = eif . a national bsnfcruptcy or ? ire sl > o ] 5 ai : 'n of nu :: c :: al property , if te Ehould be I proposed . What w - ; : ; : b ? the clfect c-f that ? People iaJtcd o : thf C' ? 2 PF ? 1 C {^* E' . ics- hs . & arisen i
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opinions ( Renewed laughter . ) Eccesiynum ( k shou oflaughter . ) The Hon . Member .-thenproceeded to read a . lctter from a correspondent at Manchester , detailing thedistresSiin that town and in ; the adjoiaing borough of Salford . These were the scenes , he said , which were horrifying the country j and yet , . tbese- were the scenes the details of which eiioited laughter in that house , and for which { hey neglected to apply any remedial raeasure of legislation . Day after day , session after session , they frittered away in party disputes without doing anything for ther benefit , of the people . They did not attepipt to deny tho extent pi" the public suffering , but yet the course of their legislation only tended to increase the evils under which thepubiic laboured . Considering that _ _
justice and . policy demanded that thess . claims should , be couceded , and also considering that it ' was a calumny on the people of England to say that if in possession of their rights they ; vvould com-Dience the bad work of spoifatiou and robbery , he should most decidedly give his vote iu favour of the proposition before the Housed V . MrVWAjKtEY had heard with estreme surprise and regret rhe speech dt-iivared that evening by the Hon . Member ior Lambtth , and he mutt say that he was sorry to find any single Member of one of the newly-etifranchised metropolitan borcughs prepared to vote agninsi ; so reasonable and jus& a proposition as that under consideration-r- ( " oh ! ohT '> When ihe metropolitan boroughs were eufraucuised .
it was feared that through their jaean 3 some very troublesome Members would obtain admission into that House—( hear , heav)—Members w ' rosa principles were a <* objectionable : to the " majority . ^ opposite ,- . ss- . the ' . ' seniiiments contained iu . tho petitioa on the tablo . " He thought , hoyyever , tbat the House had little ' reason to complain of such annoyance , and -certainly they would , have still less if all tha Memberg for those boroughs were to take a political lesson from the book qt reform as is was read by the Hon . Member of for Lambeth . That book was a large volume , but he thought he mijiht search , it through in vain to find the pago whieh coutained tho specific principles of that Hon . Gentleman . If , however , he was surprised at his speech , he was
equally , if hot more surprised , at . the silence preserved by Members on the Ministerial ; - Benches , He had expected on a question alTt'Ctiii ^ ihe rights and interests of the working classes , that the eloquence of Hon . ' Gentlemen opposite , which , had bten so kindly exerted on the subject in ot . Ker places , and which had been followed by su ' ccessiw rounds of Kentish fire , \ vould have bi en heard in their favour on the present cccasion—( hear , hear . ) Hehadentertainad somo hope that those who were so loud in their denunciations of Mie Whi ^ s for - neglecping the interests , cf the people , would not , in this instance ,, have forgotten their -former ¦ ¦ advocacy . Though . ' tip- voice on the other side has yet been , raised for that purpose , he hoped that before , the
debate concluded , they would come to the aid of the people ,, anci never could they « . io so with better effect—( cheers and laughter ;) The discussion , of this question had in his opinion taken too wide a range . The proposition before the House was a simple one , and its statement might be comprised in a nutshell . Is was-mirely this—3 _ , 300 , 000 of their tellov ? -countryrnen asked permission to state their gri-vances at tho 13 ar of-tho Hoasc , and the reply to be givcti to it was ' " ye ? , " or . ¦" no , " - That was the simple questioa stripped of ; all disguise , and -the ausvvtr to bo giVeu weuid show whether the people v . 'ero srill to entertain a hopo of justice from that House , or whether the reply would till withdisappoiEtment and indignation upwards of 3 , 000 , 000 of their ^
fellow-countrymen . Even the' very hesitation of x ' ha House to answer in the alBrniatiye showed ihe jtstice ofthe request- made by the petitioners —( hear , hear , hear . ) 3 , 300 , 000 petitioners sought an oppoi tiinity of stating their grievances at the bar of the iicase , end the House hesitated to ajiswer their just demand . The petitioners at the outset alleged that they were unrepresented in that , assembly . Then" why not yield to their Tcquest , and allow : thtra in their own way to mako their candid and honest statement ?>—( hear ) . Could that be considered a land cf liberty or jastice where so fair a rrquest was l efusod ?—( "hear , hear ) . Was it not ; only fair , after what had fallen from a _ eminent Whig leader , to see these ueh , ' . to hiar their statements , and permit them to show that they were
not the " -- turbulent and sanguinary beings that they had been represented ?— ( cheers ) .- For his own part , he was surprised to hear a gentkinan of such lively imagination , of such oomprehensivo judgment , and such vxteuVive intellectual power .-, give such an appaiihig description of the character of the people of England—( loud cheers ) . Why , vyhere did the Right Hon .. Gentleman reside ?—how diu'hb pass his time ?—( cheers ) . With whoin . did he associate ?—( hear , hear )—what books had he read . ' —( cheers and laughter)—or whero could he find aught which would warrant or justify the description which he had given of upwards of 3 , 000 , 000 of Englishmen ? Where would- the llight Hon . Gentleman select his
specimens to prove the truth of his description ? Would he find them in thenavy \ Were the sailors of Great Britain mutinous ,-cowardly , or treacherous \ r- ( hear , hear ) . Were the soldiers of tlm country mutinousV pusilkniraouf ? , or disobedient ?—( hear hear ) . What was the character of our merchants , of ^ our profesions , o our trades ' —( hear , heat ) . Wa 3 it not too bad to make such sweeping assertions , and condemn a whole . people in the mass . Let the Right" Hon . Gentleman , if he could , point ; out a single class to whom the description would apply . - Would '' he-say tho carpenters ? Would he say the smiths ? Would he say -the' -ehoeniakers ? The circumstances were such as to demand
something more " . tangible ami specific , than the Right Hon . Gentleman had favoured the Houss ; with—( hear , hear ) . Ho ( Mr . Wukhy ) was iioj so favour able to the petition aa the lion . Member for Edinburgh had represented himself to bo . On the contrary , there were many paints in it in which h 9 did not , concur , " a :: d . if ' auy ' weinber . in the H ' nuss wrs bound more than another for supporting tho motion that the pol : iUoners should be heard as the bar , it vvaa-the Right Hon . Member for Edir . burgh ,, seeing what an sptitude and readinrsb he exhibited in showing his progress as a scholar in the school of reform—( cheers and laughter ) . It was only ten years since that he was opposed to such ah extension of the suffrage , aud he was still opposed to that
point ; but he had since then come '' round , to-. the live other points of the Charter- — ' ( hear ) . It wss to be presumed , therefore , that when tho Rf ^ ht IIou . Gen-¦ tl einan had hfard tho arguments which ini ^ h'i be urged inits favour , it wouia be possible to bring him to a favourable reception ot' the sixth . Though the Right Hon . -Gentleman has declartd h ; a determination to resist Universal Suffrage , yet as ho bad . made no finality resolution , it might be * ti ' ossibVe to induce him to make some approach to it .. IT . ; C "\ ir . Waklcy ) hoped the Houso would not , . by deciding against the motion , excite . dissatisfaction . an J ¦ : ! - content amongst upwards of 3 , 000 , 000 pc-ople . He was aware it might bo urged that tho yoin upon the " qv . estioii would bs cuiiatrue'd into saving " Ave" or " ! $ o"
to-tho Charter , but he dci-. ied in toio that it was capable of such construction . He , ior his part , ' was not an-advocate for Auuuitr-Parliaments , being of opiniou that Triennial Parliament ? would work much better . He disclaimed the Question as being one '"> vb'i ? h involved the adopiion or rej ^ cuoa of the Charter .. It was simply whether , as he had said btifore , 3 , 300 , 000 cf tht ; ir fello . vr-ci '!« ntrym-su would or would not . be permitted , with their own ¦ tongues , to state " tfrrir-grievances , * m their ov » n lauauage , at the bar of the iiouse —( hear , hear . ) Wa : ; the Hcu ? e , ? io wculda . sk , determined , at all hazard , to stand by the present system of rppreseiV-atiori ? Wa . s the . £ 10 constituency so . pure and nicorrup'tiblo ns t- > bo the best which coiild be selected I Look to ihe
disclosures made'in the Ccmmsttecs- lvspectiug the gross corruption ' which , characterised t ' J 3 lust election . Was . that corruption ii-acti > bd by tt : a working people—hythossEc-echa-nicsivlid had b '(* ea . so described by the Right Hon . Gentieinan ? No ; it w&stho work of the very electors whom that Hoitso-li&d chosen as the very basia ' of a : Constitiu-n .-y— \ bear , hear . ) Nothing could b ? more ' dangtrous to the constitution of the country tba '; n the practices which had been exposed iu the late iaq-iiry . They unhinged all reliance upoii our social . insciiutiopa , and created an astonishment' in the public" miud to think that such abuses aad corruptions sh > uid be so c pen I y practised . The . workirig people attributed the fau ; t to the legis ' a' . ure . They demanded to bo admh ' ted within tho pale of tho constitution , thst they might
endeavour to clcansa tha foul stvunva of corruption ; and , in his opinion ,. their rcquess was-a' reasonable one . He had seen much of tho working people of this country—^ indesd , low h ?> d seen more . He had aiSo seen much ov the . -working -peoplo in other-. countries , and- he co . ild confidently say , that . he - never , witnessed more honest siaccrivy , oy more real aui sterling worth , ' than the working men of England ,-exhibited—( loud cL-ecr *) . He was glad to hear rhafc opinion cheered by ' . Ho ' ii .- Gentlemen opposite . Howthen could thay reconcile it to theuiselrirs to retaia those pea ' pls in the position of aserviio cla ^ s J ' -H&ar could they « ty that tne inhoMtaiit of a £ 10 .- ' . h ' oasa was better'or . more , ti'ustwoitiiy tlvin he who inhabited a . £ 5 house ? la vfhat did tiie superiority " 3 xitt X Was it ia the brick and msxtar —was it-in tho furniture or att : r < j—or was it ia feeling aad intellect--in head and heart ? -. ( . hear . )
Before the New Poor Law was enacted there * . waslittle nsces ^ ity" in the country for bolt or bar ; na rural police were required bat now tho peppk ) felt the isjustice . of the ; enactments levelled . against them j aud when -the Bight Hon , Gentlrriian tho . member for Edinburgh af ' fced what would bo the character of th 3 iaws , if tttoy . were enacted by thspeople ^ heshutild roineinber th' ^' . none could be mdru cr « t'l 6 r ' san ^ uiaarry than tlia . New Poor Liw . ' Whsn $ wai 3 considered how it . pressed upon the widow - \ vA . ' the .-orphan and tjfeage'i octogenarian , ho woulv , ica-rlessly a 3 k whajhiav ? could be more cruel in - . its operation , and ha would r ^ d tha 5 the working -pe . opts could never cuact a law a * ainstjhe aristocracy of s moro severe nature . Under the oijoumsi-ances' ia which this country was pla < jed , and considering the ij jstress . w . r \ ch prevailed , ho thought it incumbent osi ilio " H ;> u- » : ' ! iiiien to the talc of the-petitiontra and hear ; . the u : id - ^ n ' t of ihoir
grievances ; ' and he shauld thc . k-. iyra ' .- " ciriiidci'it !« grievances ; and he shuiild tlicv-c-iyra . ' ,- " ciriiidc ' riug that they were vuirepTQsonted in .: hl i-Vt > i ? so , give his most cto'djal suppov ? to the snotion-. ( il ? ur , hear . ) .. ( Contiwtfijl' . ih-oil * eighth poat'J \
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out of the Reform Bill ; what would be tho disappointment of the petitioners with the first Parliament which should assemble after the concession of Universal Suffrage , if thoy were to be told by Hon . Members and others in answer to their demands , " No , the interest of the National Debt must be paid . You shall lay your hands on no portion of the land ; the railways must not be touched , machinery shall remain in the hands of those who hold it . " Then with tespect to the demands as to wages ; he ventured to say that if there were any notion among the petitioners that the wages of labour could be increased by means of measures to be adopted contemporaneously with the points of their petition , the delnsion was most gross , because the moment of the
adopiion of those points would be the very moment when they were frightening from the country all that by which alone the wages of labour could exist . But was it possible that the 3 . 000 , 000 of petitioners should think of this when they had got power in their hands ! No ; they would complain bitterly that they bad been deluded by those who taught the working classes to consider them as their friends . Ever since the parsing of the Reform Bill the House had heard from a great many persons ivho had expected to deriTe greater fruits from it , "You said that we should have the ' the bill , the whole bill , and nothing but the bill , ' and , in faoi , v ? e have got ' nothing but tho bill' by reform , " and did they think that these persons upon getting power into
their own hands would allow the same result to occur again ! But if the people were not to be disappointed , and the £ 700 , 000 , 000 or £ 800 , 000 , 000 of capital in this country were to be taken from the present holders—if , in short , they could imagine this country given up to spoliation , he defied any man from any acquaintance with ancient or modern history to picture to himself anything like the amount of misery that would be caused . But would it end with one spoliation ? How should it ? The distress caused by the first spoliation would be doubled and trebled by the still stronger measures of spoliation whioh must come on after the first ; and where would be the bulwarks to resist ? The very Government would stand by spoliation . Now , how was it
possible to believe that the people who lad once broken through such a prescription 'as that with which the rights of property and all our institutions were surrounded in this country , would bo found favourable to the principle of appropriation I How this would operate , they had no experience to enable them to guess ; the only way in which he could conceive a parallel to the condition the country would be iu was by imagining that it would bo something more cruel and harder than the condition of a besieged city , only extending over a greater space and embracing a greater community—a community of 26 , 000 , 000 or 27 , 000 , 000 , a large portion of them depending upon a trade with ail the end 3 of the world . Was it not possible that famine—such a
famine as had never been known in Europefamine joined with pestilence—would como in tho train of all this 1 It was sad to look beyond this ; but he rcust say that the further one looked forward through such a scene as this , the very best thing that he could expect—the House would think what it must be for any English public man to say so—would bo , that a strong military despotism—( hear)—should be established , which mi ^ ht give some sort of security to the fragments of property which might be left-us . But if the country should think that after this they would ever again see those institutions under which ws arc now living they would be mistaken . ( Hear , hear . ) They would never see them again , and they would deserve never
to see them again ( hear , hear ) , and foreign nations would a ? k with interest , what had been the conduct pf this country to her people with respect to those institution ? , and the story told them would be , " England had institutions which were great and glorious—institutions which were certainly not free from imperfections , bat which contained within themselves all tho means of legally and coEstitut on . ally remedying those imperfections—institutions which , with but little alteration , had continued for 150 years together ; those institutions she threw wantonly away , for no other reason but that she was told to do so by persons who told her at the same t me that they would use the power she gave them
to ruin nor . Sha gave tliat power ; she has been ruined , and she deserved to bo ruined . " ( Hear , hear ) These were the reasons which had determined him to vote against the motion of his Hon . Friend , and he must say , that if any Hon . Gentleman was disposed to grant Universal Suffrago , he ( Mr . Macaulay ) thought that gentleman would do quite consistently to vote for the inquiry , but he must say that he found with some paiu that his Hon . Friend , the member for Leicester , ( Sir J . Easthope ) though agreeing with him ( My , Maeaulay ) as the Hon . Baronet seemed to do in a great degree , nevertheless wa 3 about to voto for the petitioners coming to the bar to a'lvanco tho principles of this petition . Sir J . EASTHOPE . —To expound th- m .
Mr . MACAULAY resumed . —He could find those principles quite enough expounded in the petition itself ; but , however that might be , he was so much opposed \ . o several of those principles that he could not so far violate truth as to pretend to feel any greai respect for the pet . iion . He should therefore vote against it , and in doing eo he should giva the petitioners much more reason for content than those who voted for them now with the ( -etermination to vote against them hereafter . ( Hear , hear . )
Mr . ROEBUCK said , that the Right Hon . GentJ-.-nian had be ^ un by professing great kinuncss for the working classes , but he had ended with a doscription of the results which he said would follow , if Purlianient gave power to those laborious , industrious , pains-takiiis , long suffering classes , which fhowtd that the Right Hon . Gentleman as . bottom entertained no gvcat kindness for those classes . Thtre was one grand proposivion on which the Right Hon . Gentleman ' s speech was Laied , find tbat proposition ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) had seen elsewhere ; he had seen it elaborated in a form which left no doubt of its parentage in the snap" of a discussion of Parliamentary Reform in the Edinburgh Bcvictr . ( Hear , hear . ) The proposition oi ihe
Right Hon . Gentleman was this , — " I am not willing to give the pc-op ' e power till I am assured that they will not misuse it . " ( Hear . ) And the Right Ho . i . Gentleman appealtd to tho petition itself to prove that he sought not to ^ rant the prayer of it . Now , he ( Mr , Roebiid ;) migkt answer this in various ways , and first , he might deny the Right Hon . Gentleman ' s premises altogether —( hear , hear)—but , mounting much higher up , and asking on what principle the House of Commons was formed , he was prepared 10 rnahitain that the same principle , if carried , would bring togeiherthe wjiole body of the people to confer on public affairs ia that place . There was a natural detko iu every man of
to profit by another ' ^ labour . Tno object Government waa to prevent that derire from breakir-g ou : into action . Iu a state of nature , \ f he ( Mr . Ilccbuck ) was strong , he obtained that which he dc&in-d ; as men advanced they met together' aud fornisd societies . In this country tho people had hit upon the principle of deputation to a few to do that which in former times was dono in tho market p ! ac-. by the whole body of tho people . Tha House of Commons then fat ii . - ' .-re to prevent the ( b s : ra that t-ach man has of profiling by another ' s labour irom coming into action ; hey were put over the people to watch for them ; but , then , tha ' . being the caso , who was to W 3 ich them—to watch ihe watchers
?—( hear . ) That couid oiny be done with effect by making tha llou ^ o of Commons ic ~ ponfciblo to the people ; 3 . ; id t-be charge aga-. nst the Houc-e of C ' -mmons on the p .-. rt of ih-s people was , that they d ; . !>> gated to a stnail section the j .-owcr of enforcing thus responsibility , and ihat tha ; small section had j . < inoti wi : h the Houfo of Commons to oporers liio remainoer of the people , ai : u that they did oppress the remainder of tr . c p . op : c— ( hear , hear . ) The-Ri ^ ln Hon . Gentleman , ht / ljk ) n thj pbtition in hid hazii-s , had said , thut the petitioners made a . demand fur tho establishment oi a minimum of W 3 t ; es ; if this were to , ttit-u ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) a ? Ucd Hon . Gentleman on the ether side of tho Kguswhc . her thc-v did r . ot make a demand of exactly &s
Fame principle in the Corn Laws ?— ( hear ) Th ? Right Hoc . Guiit ' eman suid , " 1 am not willing to give the people power because they demand a minimum oi wages ; " but ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) said io the House " remember , you have given power to the landed inurest , and given them ihat power notwithstanding they a ^ ked ior a maximum of prices . " In principle where was t ' . ie difference ? But all this was bad peht cal economy , said some Hon Miiaber ; this was bad economy , said the Edinburgh Review . But , be i ; bad politic : - ! economy or good , the poor man wuuid come forward and say , " You have tiven me power , no-. vl demand a minimum of wages" —( Ikar , hear ) . How often , when the Fovr Laws were before-the House , had they been told that there w * re very mai . y
of the njiseTHS of the people tr . at wore entire !} beyond the control of the House ? ho agreed that at present it was so ; "but if the people had a voice there , would it long be so ? The ¦ Right Hou . _ Gentleman Eaid that parts Gf ibe petition contained propositions adverse to the security of property . Let him ( Mr . Roebuck ) point to the great organ of the Conservative party—The Times newspaper—and ask did it not every day bricg out projects and assert principles quite as extravagant , quite as fierce , quite as directly asd pointedly against the security oi property as these contained in that extremely unwise , and , he would say , extremely foolish , petition ! — ( hear , hear ) . But were those who -signed this petition really unfit to govern themselves ? Separate
tho peoplo ot this country into classes , and they would see v /' nich of them were against property ; the classes oho had a share in education were r , ot against—t / . c enlightened machanics , they were net against p / operfv . The Right Hon . Gentleman had said , t ^ at if " any one class was dependent upon ' property and tho security of property , that cWs was the labouring class , and yet he wished to make out that this class was sobhml to their r ? al interests and to all that prudence would dic . ute , that it was that class of all others wmeh w . / uld be w llin « to reduce : be country to the conait . on of a desert . Now , he ( Mr . Roebuck ) judged " . - he people cf En-land otherwise ; he did not judge by tiio words of tbe foolish , maligaaat , cowardly
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demagogue who had written that petition . He ( Mr , Roebuck ) knew where to put his finger upon the man , and he was convinced it was not that man who was entitled to stand forward as the representative of the labouring classes . He would ask those Hon . Members who had borne witness to the long-suffuring of the industrious classes , amidst the privations anddistresses to which they had been exposed ^ and which they were yet daily suffering , what : was the character of his fellow-countrymeu 1 Xes , it Was from thote sufferings that he judged of his fellowcountrymen , and not from the trashy doctrine contamed in the petition , which would be of itself ridiculous but for the grandeur of the multitude of names appended to it . What they asked wasfor
, the power which they saw their --fellow-citizens enjoying . What they complained of Was , that their follow-citizens , whom they knew to bo made by nature no better than themselves , were selected as the repositories of power . That was a distinction which was peculiarly galling to them . But he did not believe , fipeakiDg from tho knowledge which he had of his fellow-citizens , and it had been his fortuno to mix much with them , that their belief was general ihat the great accidents that regulate the happiness of their lives were within the power of the Government . In fact , he believed that the class to which he referred was as enlightened as the present electoral body —( hear . ) Well then , if they were as enlightened as the present electoral bodylet the
, House consider that this country had wealth , aud had security for property tinder the present electoral body . Why then should the country not have the same under the labouring classes ? If they woro as worthy to be electors as tho present body , why ' was he ( Mr . Roebuck ) to . conclude that under them the country would be involved in that anarchy which had been painted by the somewhat terrific pencil of the Right Hon . Gentleman ? That was uot his ( Mr . Roebuck ' s ) judgment of the people of England . If he was wrong , what kept them from displaying their real character 1 He affirmed that the Government had uot physieal force adequate to keep them down . If ^ hey were to rise as one man , as they might do . the Executive had nothing but
what was but as a rush to keep them down With . What then kept them down ? : They kept quiet from knowing that the advantages which they and their ancestors had derived from obedience to the law were not to be thrown away slightly , and that was their only feeling in the matter . ¦ And if he were to bo asked by what his countrymen were peculiarly distinguished from other nations of Europe , and from the people of all othpr countries ihat he knew of , ho should say tho distinguishing feature in their character waa obedience to the law . —( hear , hear . ) It had happened to himself and many other Hon . Members to travel in other countries ; he asked those Hon . Members v . hat was the case there 3 On the Continent ] it was said la fores was
everywhere——hero it was obedience to the law . The feeble constable without any question took the offender into custody solely frosi tho moral feeling of ilia people . It wa 3 not physical force , but law , that bore sway here , and this it was that mado him believe that if the whole body of tho people ruled the country he should walk homo just as quietly as he should that evtr . iug —( hear . ) Such was his confidence in his follow countrymen— ( huar , hear . ) He believed that if ever there had been a libel spoken —he did not say so in any sense that ' could be painful to the right Hon . Gentleman , —but if ever there was a libel t-policn upon his patient , his forbearing , his industrious fellow-countrymen , it was that idle declaiming which said that they were unable to
govern themselves . Why , it was they who liayo done-everything for this couitry—upon them rested the -whole fabric of English prosperity and greatness , and now the very fact of this peaceful organizitian for the attainment of what they believed to be their natural and political rights was a lesson which the world had never seen before , The Right Hon . Centliiman hiuit-elf " was learned in the history of tho world—could he point llis finger to a single event in history , that iji its nature was like that which they had seen yesterday upon the ' floor .. of'that house ? What . 'was that event of yesterday ? It was the peaceful act of 3 , 500 . 000 people , who had all joined together throughput the length and breadth of the land—in the open markets and in tho crowded towns
—in the by-ways anl in the highways ^—who had assembled in peace , and fully relied on tho security of the law , and had , signed the document which was then laid before the House , in which they asked by petition for the indulgence of a right , which they in their hearts believed to belong to them . ( Hear . ) They had not risen up as an armed man ; they Jiadnot banded together against the law ; they had conducted themselves peacefully , calmly , prudently , forbearingly ; they had como and called upon the House to hear them ; and yet , with that document to point at , the Right Hou . Gentleman concihtkd that so Btriking an example and so extraordinarj 1 an incident in the history of man was io be thrown o- ^ ide-as nothing , and that he was justified
in iixin < . c his critically acrimonious eye upon tne . turning of sentences , his almost grammariunlike sagacity in insight into language , while he altogether forgot tho larg < r and moro striking features of an aCc by which 3 , U 0 % QO 0 of his fellow-countrymen who were not now admitted within the pale of the constitution had ccino to that Iiouse , and in so entirely peaceable a nruiner petitioned for that as an indulgence which they fully bolieved to be their own as a rigTit . ( Hear . ) Now , lot it not bo supposed that he ( Mr . Roohuck ) agreed with one hundredth part of tl : e propositions contained in that .-petition . ( Hear . )
What he did ask for tho petitioners , was , simply that they should be heard . ( Hear ) Ho wauted no quibbio to help him out of the difficulty . The lloiu Member for Rochdale had , on a former evening , asked for the very same t . iing , and how had hn been met by tho Hon . Baronet tho Member for Leicester ? Ho now saw something that he did not see before . ( Hear . ) What that something might bs it was not fur him ( Mr , Roebuck ) to say —( a-laugh from the Opposition benches)—but now , forsooth , though the demand was precisely the same as tbat made by the Hon . Member for Rochdale—( hear)—the Hon . Member for Leicester took a different
course . Inquiry ! " To propound their opiitioud ; to state why they thought their evils arose from bad legislation , " taid the Hon . Member for' Leicester ; why , that was exactly the proposition of tho lion . Member for Rochdale on the foinior night , and yet , though the lion . . Baronet then voted ¦ against the motion , ho now came down , and , having some special light < on-the subject , said he should vi ) te for the 3 , 000 , OUO of petitioners . ( Hear , hear . ) Ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) did not want to do that sort of thing , li'j wanted no excuse for the voto whioh ho should give ou the . presm ' ii occasion . Ho had voted for the Hon . Member i ;> r Roch ale ou the ' former occasion , and he should vets ; with 'ho lion . Member for Finsbury now , not for the petition as a whole , natfor fox
everything conraiiied in tiio pe-. it : on , but what was i-alkd the Charter— ' . \> i that wa the- way ' to put it . lie should vuioiV'i" liic Charier , because ho boii . vcd tb . at tbo pe&p'Io otu . ht to be ahniued into tho pal ' .. * of the -coii ^ iiiutl-C'ij , and boua ; tse , irom what study he had ben &bk : to giyo-to tl \ o Li > tovy of maukiiid , and Train what consideration ho had had of man ' s li-aturc , he bL-J : cvcd that the bos-i government that- could bo got for any people , whether locking to the nc cecities of ins ' trnction , the interefts of wealth , or to any tf the peculiar ci ' vcunistances siffcctiiig paiiiculur nations—ihat tho be&t govcrnmcin taut could bo got was that which proceeded t ' 2 oi } i lbs wholu ; aiid it did strike him , that if toniorn / vv they could tvan . * fcrm , by legislative meaus , not by any vioitiit ycvo-lutio ' n , that Housp into a complete reprt-P ¦• ivt ; : tigu cf iho people of Ei ) g' ! ai ; d
there would not by one i'jt : of difference as to all the iutfrc > t .-i aud fcTideutiis oi' propeviy in ihirf country —with ihio tiiu i 1 - ? , p" ^ - ' - ' - ' ' and auvaiitasecua exctption , t } iat ev ' . ry iuanin that ' case would have thv ' pToocids oi Iv . i wv / i ; lulonr , v / itii o « Jy so uinch taken irom it as w « : iM : o : m iais fair share of coiifribuiio ) . io ia < - ^! a * c— ( : : var ) . That was not the case now , and iliat iu was ii-it ' . vas . tlie evil of which t-ie people complained . Tiiey ci-A : io . a-wjrt that all the evil , wiiU v . h ' . cli iliey woro aijTctod wire atU'ibuiabte to ihe . goV ' .-j-nai . 'nfc v . r . der which tiioy had lived , but iliat a large pardon of tho evils they v / crc labouring mider might fairly bo . attributed to the mode in which i ' uvt , Hcnse was constituted . They de-iarcd that , being uin'epref-enttd , they paid more largely towards the expencos of the fta- ' to than thw ou ^ ht io co with reievenoe to their condition
aiid numbers . Tho eaiaso o \ this they asserted to ; be their want of power in that House , and , rta-1 soiling from ' the acis of the majority " of th : > . t House ; a .- ^ at present constitfl ^ d , they felt tbat ihsy had been , and-wc-iv , unfairly deulfc with . Tliereforu : they , the long-sufiVving , pa ' aeivt people , now at lest j a . ked for a share in the goreriuuent of the country i —( hear ) . Now , compare-the pasture ' that hadbocnj drawn by . the Right lion . Gcnt'emau with the , eveirfs that had occurred in that House . during the j present year . They had been toid of the -necessity j of placing . the government in the hands of the aris- 1 tocracy only ; now , * . vha 5 had been their experience of a few months working of that ' - 'description of government ? The people being in a state of distress , fladiug food scanty and dear , asked the governing body of-the country , when they met , to lessen that distress by lowering the price of food . What was tho answer ? Why , iho aristocracy most
vehomontly , most decisively , most completely , declared that they would do no " such thing . Upon the arguments that had been used p gainst the claims of the working classes by tlie R'ght lion . Gentleman he ( Mr . Roebuck ) would . be entitled at once to say , that a spiritof rapine -prevailed with that aristooratical body . Taking this instance , not of wild languago ( hear ) , but of determined resistance to tho cry or ' the whole buffering population , he was entitled to say , on the principle laid tiown by the Right Hon . Gentleman , that the aristocracy in that House were ae uated byaspirit of rapine . ("' . No . ") Let him not bs . misunderstood . He had borno very patiently wnh the counter ar . ^ uraent , and he hoped t . hoy would , listen patiently to hioi— ( hear . ) He Rjainlaii : ed that he ¦ vfoulii bs fairiy entitled , ju aoeordance w'itli . tLaarguQiesiiof the Righj-. Hou . Gcntleutan , to say tba- tho Go \ eniincnv which could act so was f . eiuaied by a spirit of rayiue and - . plunder , and only kepi the people do » va i > j the power they possessed
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by having the arms in their , hands . Going a little further , however , he wouUMay that the cxiEting majority in that House , having the power in their haiida , afid not fueling the pressure of mieery upon them , had up means of kiiovring what that distress was , aud that , therefore * they would be doing , not only the poor , but the rich , a benefit by sending into that House those who would bo eltcted : by the people tbemselve 3 , and would be able to shew them what the evils were that had beea created by their class iBgisIatipn . And let them not suppose that by admitting the - . labouring , classes to a-share in the representation of the country the power of electing reprasentatiyes would not bo borne still by the : whole population . Wjbie they to suppose that wealth ar . d
iateJligenco would cease to exercise their natural influence 1 Did they imagine tint otly the wild , the unintelligent * ' ¦ ¦ ¦ would govern the country in that case 1 No ; u vvould be the rich and the intelligent who would still , by force of their position .. and their education , govern the country . No people were ever , yet governed by the ignorant , or by any but those which might be called the thinking and leisure classes . The only effect of creating such a Government as the petitioners desired would bo ; that they would still have wealth eitycising its due and legiinste influence with the aid of intellect , whereas the influenco now exercised was a malign influence , doing niisebief and working c-ui ; evil instead of good . The difference between tlie
Right Hon . Gentleman and himself was , that he bad great faith in the goodfseling , patience , and virtue ot his fellow-couiitrynien , which the Right Honourable Gcnileman Beeined to doubt , believing as he . did that-. they / ought not to be trusted with povvo-r ; forming ; his' opinion , as ho did , from the petition that had been laid upon the tablo of the . "IIousu , and shutting his eyes to the experience which he . ought to have had while journeying throu « h . this large country , he must have had of the constant forbearance of his fellow-countrymen ;—tho Right Hon . Gentleman , shutting his eyes to all this experience , and'judging ' only by the paper on the table , declared that the labouring classes were unworthy of the trust which it was eouKht to repose in thorn—that the- / would be cruel and tako delight in rapiub and wanton spoil and bloodshed—that when they found peace they would make war , that of this cultivated land
they would make a desert , and that that great country , which they themselves had almost -entirely raised to its-present prosperity and greatness , they , if in power , would be the first to reduce to one wild scene of bloodshed , anarchy , and confusion ; for this reason it was that the Right lion , Gentleman declared that as long as ho held a seat in that House he would resist the demand of tho peoplo for a share in the representation . Ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) could not follow the Right Hon . Ge&tleman in that course . For his own pa . it , what little ability he had should be devoted to the service of those classes upon whom the opinion of the Right Hon . Gentleman cast such a stigma . He believed that ho should be best doing them service by speaking of them with calinuess , consideration , and affection , and by endeavouring to do for them that which they had aright to expect at his hands . He would endeavour to the'best of
his power ' toi . renu-. r them equal in pome . of political privileges with any of those vyho now seut members to that House , by not ' allowing any fervile cla ? s to reaiain , believing as he did that property would be most cecurewhen his labouring follow-countrymea had the most power in the country —( hear ) . Lord F . liGERTON said , ably and ingeniously as the Hon . and Learned Member for Bath usually conducted his arguments , he had on the present occasion more than ever applied the ingenuity of the debater to tho question at issue . The-Hon . ' and Learned Member had carefully avoided the real question before the House . Tho Right Hon . GenUeman the member for Edinburgh had , with his ^ usual ability and manliness , made a declaration of his
opinion on cert am points , for which lie was pefectly justified iu locking to the petition itself . For from that petition , which the Hou . and Learned Member had designated as trashy aud contemptible , he was enabled' to " . show what wero the opinions pf the 3 . 500 , 000 of petitioners oir the subject of Universal Suffrage and of tho use they wouid make of tne power , it would give them . Tr . ey had no reason whatever for believing that the petitioners were not sincere , or that tho Ri . < ht Hon . Gentleman , drawing his inferences from the statements in their petition , had over-estimated the consequences which might bo expected to follow sach an extension oi' suffrage as was contemplated by the petitioners . It was , thcre ' ore , not quite fair in tha Hon . and Learned Member for Bath to draw , as he had done , their attention away from the petition itself , which formed tlie question before thein , to those abstract political subjects' which he had brought under their
consideration . Tho Hou . Alemberfor Bath seemed to expect sotto new Atlantics or Utopia to ari . ^ e , in which everything would bo conpucud upon principles of iho strictest justice ; but ho ( Lord Lord F . Egerton ) agreed with the Right Hon . Gentleman In thinking" that it was much more probable that the armed uian would arise . They had -never seen an Utopia-in any country , but they had seen a Cromwell in this country , and that too under circumstances of Ies 3 urgent necessity than those which would doubtless arise were the ' statb . of things ' -contemplated'by this petition to take place . Agreeing as'hodid in almost all that hadfallen from the Right Hon ; Gentlemn the member for Edinburgh , and feeling that the Hon . and Learned Member had not fairly met the question , throwing aside tho petition as ho had-done altogether , - he . preferred to give , a vole which he had no doubt wbu ! d expose him to unpopularity , but the consequences of which he was luliy prepared to meet .
Mr . ILi . VV . bb thought the representatives of larger constituencies were bound to express their opuiiou on a question of this sort , in order that . there might be-no dcubt as tp their views ' . Any difficulty which he ( Mr . Hawe ?) might have in voting on this occasion had been removed by the speech of the Hon . and Learned Gentleman the member for Bath , who , with , the manliness and straightforwardness that had always distinguished him iu . that Honse , had declared that it was not for tho petition that ho was about to vote , but for the Charter . On . that sole ground he ( Mr . Hawes ) differed with his Hon . Friend . HediU uoc concur with him in supposing that to grant universal suffrage would be either safe or prudent , but
on $ he other hand he utterly disclaimed any want of trust , regard , respect , or affection for the people . He thought he Was as least iu a position to resist the general and abstract views of reform "' contained iu the Charter , for when had he ever resisted any measure of practical reform or the gradual and progressive extension of the uoiiticairightsof the people ? Ho believed that the- adoption of the measures claimed by this petition would aggravate , the evils complained of . For all practical projects of improvement he was , S 3 ho ever had been , disposed sii .-cerely to vote ; but , as to tho present proposal , he could not feel it ¦ consistent with a due regard for the public interest to l ' rad it his support , ( riear . )
Mr . HUME regretted the course taken by some of hia lion . Friends . Nor did ha deem their roafining at all valid . It was said , for instance , that tho Cnartust petition contained intempeiate expressions . Bai was it liviv to brand a whole body—and novy immensely large body—of fel ! ovv-coui ; tryuien with such sentiments as the imprudence of a few aii ^ ht giyo expression to ? Would it be : fair , to apply this rule to the party opposite , and to charge them ' . vt-tli tho responsibility of the language--used in ouo of their gre ; it periodicals— "that England would flourish to-morrow , if the manufaciures were ail cngulfcil' . ! " [ Sir R . J'cel here said , I know livtiiijig of that language . " ] Then the Right Hen .
Gentleman knew nothing or tlie expression of public opinion . ( Laughter , ) But the substance of the Chartist case was well stated in their petition , the a-gumtiits of which no ono could controvert . C Oh , " aud laughter . ) No honest man could deny thrill . ' (' Renewed laughter , and a cry of , " The national raith . '' ) lc was very uufair to charge the Cuariisti with auintoution- to tiesiroy the debt , or iujure the credit of the nation . ( " Read the pedt-iuu . " ) Read it your . < oit ( said the Hon . Meciber , fi-mitios great laughter . ) Let the arguments of tlie podium ba examined . ( The Hon . Member went tinouga them one by oi ; e . ) Were not . they all founduu in truth and ju = ti . cu . 1 The mode of
avoiding revolution was to look to and apply themselves to iho v / eil-founded complaints of the people , i'he-ir patience and forbearance had been already suiS .-eieiuly manifested , and the mora especially so when it ivas coaaidered that many of their claims were laost . j ' utt and reasonable . ( Hear , acid cries of "Oh , oh !") Who could deny tho truth of some of the propavilions in tlie petition ? If , like himself , they differed , from' the petitioners on one or two pointsif , for e-xample , they differed from them in opinion as to tiio character of the New Poor Law—was that any reason why -they-should ' neglect to satisfy claims which were baaed on every principle of justice and reason ? They might depend upon it that the peace of the country depended upon their
listening patiently and attdatively to those claims . Tiie petitioners deplored the existence of any kind of monopoly , and urged that the abolition of any one monopoly would never unshackle labour until the people possessed that power under which all monopoly and oppression mutt cease . Was not this a reasonable proposition ? ( Cries of " Read on . ") He had no objection to read on . The petitioners in tha next paragraph mentioned the monopolies of machinery and laud as monopolies which ought to be abolished . ( Cries of "Hear , hear . ") Well , and if they complained of these monopolies , so did he ( Mr . Hume . ) C ^ Oh , oh ! " and ironical cheers . )
He said , that the law of entail heaped every sort .-of . misery upon this country . (" Oj ! " aud laughter . ) Why , entail and primogeniture produced the mono ~ poly of land . ( Shouts of laughter . ) Why , said the Hon . Meavber , why dp you laugh I ( Renewvd laughter . ) I ana giving you an explanation of all this—(" Oh ! " and laughter ) -as well as I cas > give an oxplanauon . ( Cries of *• Hear , " and laugiiisr . ) YeS , ot course , you laugh at the misfortunes of your felld . vT-. inc . , ( cnos of , * Oh ,-oh- !") ihat .-is tha-. only way of interpreting your iaugh , ( Oh , oh ! " ) or i-ls- j 1 ani a . vcry iwperiett expounder of youv feelia . s . ( Loud I- f ilter and ironical chews . ; Well , ' laugh away ! 1 am obliged to you t-jj M » eaMng yguc real
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THE NORTHERN S TAR . : ¦ " ¦ ¦ •¦¦• • ' ' ' .. y ^ : _ M ^
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), May 7, 1842, page 5, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct597/page/5/
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