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inanity—points on which be 'would not now enter ; bnt above all , he was satisfied that the subversion of all the great ^ stablishments of the country must inevitably ensue , and that to grant the prayer cf these petitioners would in itself tend more particalsriy to the disadvantage , poverty , and suffering of this class more than any other remedy that could be proposed- Entertaining , these opinions—having expressed them by his vote on a former evening—a ^ eirg that nothing had since occurred to induce him to doubt the soundness of the conclu-B 10 H 3 to which be had then arrived—differing from the Hon . Member for Leicester , he should to-night adhere
to the course he bad then taien , and , however , reluctantly , firmly but decidedly resist the motion of tha Hon . Member for Finsbury . He ( Sir J . Graham ) was satisfied the concession would produce the most disastrous results to the workiDg people ; one of which would b * the making them believe that doubt and hesitation existed within those walls with respect to the remedies they in their petition proposed . He W 3 S satisfied , that so far from affording a remedy , they would M found to be disastrous in the extreme ; and , entertaining that opiaion , it would be his duty certainly to resist the motion of the Hon . Member for Finsbnrv .
Sir J . EASTHOPE rose to explain . He had been quite misunderstood by the . Right Hon . Baronet the Secretary of the Home Department . He ( Sir J . Easthope ) thought that he had guarded himself against misconception by stating , that on a former occasion he had felt that if he voted with the Hon . Member for Rochdale he should have approved those propositions in the Charter to which he was opposed , but that on the pre sent occasion he considered that he was asked to permit the petitioners to expound their own prayer , and to show its relevancy to their own distress . If he were called upon , as the Right Hon . Baronet assumed , bow to affirm auy pi the sentiments contained in the Charter , he should have adhered to the course which he had taien before .
Mr . MACATJLA . Y said , he was anxioug to offer a few Words on the present occasion , as he was not present in his place when a simi ar motion had come before the House , when he was aware that the absence of many gentlemen connected with the late Administration bad been stated to be the result of design . JTow , he could answer for himself ihat he was absent on that occasion in consequence of indisposition . His JCoble Friend , ¦ whose absence be now again deplored , was , by accident , cot in his place ; and he ( Mr . Mscaulay ) thought he could with confidence say that not a single member of the late Government , who was present , withheld the expression of their sentiments from any unworthy motive whatever—thear , hear . ) He should attempt to imitate , as far as he could , the proper tc-mper shewn
by the Right Hod . Gentleman who had just sat down ; asd if he " ( Mr . Macanlayi should be betrayed for & moment into any departure from that temper , no person who fcnew him would , he was sure , attribute it to any want of kindness or good feeling toTrards those millions whose petition was now under the consideration of the Housr . He could not sanction , by his "Vote , the motion of the Hon . Member for Finsbury—< hear , fcear . t The Hon . Member bad shaped his mo-ion with very considerable siiU , he had shaped it in such a manner as-to give him ( ilr . llscaula ;) a very fair plea so to vote f < --r it , if he wished to evade the discharge of his dnty ) , and yet to be aWe to szj to his Conservative constituents , " I never said a word in fcveur oi reversal Suffrage , or those other changes foi ¦
which the petitioners called ;'' and at the same time the Hon . Member for Finibury had so shaped his motion as to crf . -r him : Mr . Macaulsj ) an opporcnity of saying to s large asssmMy of Ciartiits , " On that occasion , when your petition wis before the Hcnse of , CcmrcoDs , acd the motion was made ttat you te called in and be heard at the baT , and when that motion was opposed by the Government , 1 voted with you . " But be \ iir . ilucaulay ) thought this questi . n io important that he should not discharge his duty if he hzd recourse to any such evasion , and therefore he felt coKiptlled to meet the metion with a direct negative— -heir , hear . ) For it seemed to him , if the Hoase departed from its ordinary and genera } rn ? e of not bearing persons st the bar , that the PcSiionfcrs might tindersuvcd ; in all
reasonable acceptation of tuch a cctctssicn , th 3 t though the House was not decidedly favourable to , jtt Hon . Members had not fully made up their minds to resist "What they asied . 2 \ ow , his ( 3 ± r . JIaeaulny ' si nurid \ ras so msde up , and he conceived that the petitioner would have & right to complain of him if he were to elnde this question by voting for the motion of his Hon . Friend , and then on any future occasion be gave & distinct negative to evay one of the clauses of any bill which might be framed upon the basis of this petition . He did think , if he adopted such a course , they would have some reason to complain of disingenousneES and unfairness on his part . That accusation , if he could avoid it , they should not have an opportunity of bringing against him
—( hear , hea ? . ) He was sure i : was very far from bis imagination to criticise with ary severity cr malignity the Iaaguags contained in this petition , but to ths essence of it he must refer when the question was , ¦ Whe ther or not the persons from whom it had exuitrit ^ d should be called in to be heard in support of it . The petition demanded that this House ' Do immediately , without alteration , deduction , orEddition , passintoa law the detriment entitled the People ' s Charter ;'" and he coBceived he should not deal fairly ? r ! ih tie h&use if he consented to call the petitioners in &n ] y to > e heard , as had been suggested , en tbesutject of the existing public distress . If arjy Hon . Men . t « moved fvr an inquiry into that distress ana the ai&ins r f remedying it—if any Hon . Member thought the heart-reDdice statements
Which had been made to-night otscht to be substantiated and proved b ? fore the House , be for one "would not oppose it ; nay , he would vote for it . But be contended , thst when he found a petition demanding a particular law to ba passed immediately " without alteration , deduction , or addition , " and then to represent it as merely desiring an inquiry into the public distress , was reaCy paltering with the question—( hear -. 2 fow he might , xzuch more easily than any otht _ r gentleman in the House , consent to give his support to the motion of the Hon . Member for Finsbtiry , for there were parts of the Charter to which he was favourable ; in truth , cut of ail its six points there was only ene to which he had an extreme and unmitigated hostility . HeJiad already voted in favour of the ballot , and as to
the property qsalliicaUon of members to serve in Parliament , he mc-it cordially concurred with the petitioners . He bad always thought , that while there was a property qualification required to form 3 constituent body , a property qualification for - j , representative was superfluous . He could not understand why it was that the members for Edinburgh and Glasgow were not required to have a property qualification , and these for ilarylebone and Msncbetter were required to have a property qualification ; if the principle were sound , it ought lo be universal—it unsound , it ought to be abandoned . — { hear , hear . ; Neither did be think a ^ y Hon . Member couid stand up in favour of that en Conservative grounds . It was no part of the old consdtuticn—it was not a part of the rrrorccs made at the time of the Revolution , but loDg sfrer the Revelation It had beta introduced by 2 tad G-jveir . rcent , and passed by a tad Parliament , for the dii-. inct purpose of defeating the
BeTftiuu&n , and for the exclusion cf the Protestant sujceiiioa to the iLrvLe—shear , hear . ; He was against annual ParrKraests , but at the san . e titne he "was reanj to E ^ ree , to a ctriain tstvnt , to meet the wishes of the pcop : e bj limiting the duration of Parliaments . 11 = did tot 50 to the minor points coatain-d in tbe petition , because iLtre was oce point so imperial .: —a point Trhish , in his judgment funned the very tsstx . ee of tie Charter— "tffclcb . if withheld , would have the Efr wt cf creit ^ cg aiitation , acd wLich , if granti-d , mi ; : ercU net cr . e straw "whether the othtrs Were grii ; ted or not ; aud that point vras TTniversal i-jfirr . £ ; e , * rithc-u : any qualification of property at alL Having a ceci _ icu opinion that sach a change as t ; e cozce ^ sion of Ti ^ Tcrsal Sc 5 ra 5 e would be utterly fatal to the best interests of the country tX large , hs f ; it it his iinty manfully t \> ( Zedsre ht could not consent to h- , -Td ont the Itiit Lope that hs cuuld evrr , under anv
circumsUices , sappi ; sveh a ch . in . Te— .-bear , heui . r — The i \_ iscns upon wnica he enteru . ineU tLrit opinion he wc ^ id state as shoitly as be could . He thought , in the £ iit piacs , that the propc-sed ir . cu -ry . constitcted a presumption against the chance ' . Tir . cri was produced 1-y the Rtforai Bill— te uid not &ay this on the grcasd of firality—he ect- ? rt ' j . ini-d no opinion cf that EOit . E-j ^ dn'iited that violent and frequent ciuir-ges weit zi . t ceiirJl'le ; tut at the same time he jr . u ^ t say , that every chaugc propc-sea i ^ rxst b . ju ieea : y its o ^ ra Errits . He w .-. s bozrnd by no tie , &nd he ttcs ready to picb tuy Ifcgls ^ tsve reform wh ; ch h' beli -ved would & ^ i . J . v . ce to trie puliic iriterest . % Hs thought it was a r < ii- ; t 2 . T £ a nrznment ^ irsinst 2 . change of this sor t on the
pajt cf thvte "nco conttLfea tuemselvrs Tr ; sayine that they coni-id = it-d the charge w&uid be incansiitmt wiUi the c . ntL ued exitterce of the monarchy and the with the c . ntL ued exitterce of the monarchy and tho
that ' . vlvioh :: o wife GoTciiitnent ev : r vrou : d attempt Ec ^ si of Lords . Akhoueh a faithful and ! oy-I snlject" to du ; that ivhieh ii' auy Governmci . t did tttf . mpt of her Zdtjatj , and favcursMe to scmixturo of the to do , :-i : cy -. ivniJ dvless tb ^ n their duty ; the r . crk - ariit-. cnt : c element in the constitution of the c-Mmtrr , ir ; a cla ? s "; 3 had b ? -: n rca .- ? oiied with as iftba Govt-rustiil he luui-t consider that tbe monarchy and the aris- men tivasto situated tiint instead of the people supp ^ rtthe to
t-: ^ o . cy -s-tre not : he ends , but ih-i means of govtrunect — iear . hear .. H = Laxi known £ overEment » in coue-
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ttiis where neither the mo :-archy was hereditary nor the ariiic-CTLcy hereditary , and yet tbose countries had prc 5 j er = d ; but he fcelieven that UniverEi . ! SnfT ; "age would be fatal to a 31 the objects for which arn-.-narcby exiled , or even a well-ordered repnblic existed , ai : d thit it - ^ -as iseapalie of coexisting with the extension of Ci 7 il zj . tlorj . Ee ccuceiVBd that civilization rested upon the security cf the Government . It could not ba necessary iu an ss ~ Ebly like that for him to go through arguments in support of that proposition , or to allude to the vast experience which led to that result . Everybody well inetr , that where property was JDsecnre it was cot in the power of the finest soil , of the finest climate , of the moit moral and intellectual constitution of tke people , to prevent a country suiting into barbarism—TriJie , on the other band , where property v ? as secure , it was scarcely in the power of Tiny Government to prc-ven * a nation going on prcsperotuly .
If these fcTils had been found in ihe Goverrmsnt of tixe par : or me eoumry at toe- Jee * ox iaDouring s . ccuntry , the rtrosjer was ike sriument ma- ' e out . TheprotrcBS which this country had " miide in the midrt of ail ths niifsoTfcn ^ Eiit to which she hidfrca ti-seto been exDcsed , showed ho-s- irresistible was th * 3 power " of the ' sr ^ t prlrclple of security to property . U-: iTC !? al SufTra ^ f , vn-u-d oppose , he wos conii-Iem , Eowt 7 er the Misis ^ ' r micLt have . sqnar-Jerc-d tee £ -rr .: y a ? rhoald hiin-eif , a caUona ! bankruptcy or pnblis rererre * , ttili vi : h ~ mu ~ ty t > iToperty , tte , ihe snollmik : ; or' naifc- 2 ! prepay , ! f j : should be labcnr , industry , and e :. t * -rj-ii ^ of the conr . try found , proposed . Whar vrc \ A b » lr « meet of tnat ? resfcureif . TYhateTer migLt be tie & > r . cf war , the People lallicd of ti-j c ^ apr- ' .-ictmeat . tnat lad snbtn par : of the coasiry at tbe iee * labouring s .
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earce means with security to property repaired faster than ' -war could destroy , and if that werathe fact , all classes had the deepest interest in the seenrity of property , and the labouring classes had that interest in the highest degree . Following that principle , be conceived the supreme government of the country could never be intrusted to any class , with regard to which there did not exist the moral certainty that they never would commit any great or systematic violation cf the sanctity of property—I hear , hear ) . Had he that assurance with respect to the petitioners was the question he ( Mr . Macanlay ) now asked ? Had he the assurance that if the Government were placed in the hands of the msjority of the people of this country , without pecuniary qualification , they would respect the sanctitv
of property ?—ihear , hear ) . He thought not ; and if be were compelled to give a reason , be would , wiinout noticing with any severity tbe indecorous language it contained , take the petition which his Hon . Friend tbe Member for Finsbury had caused to be printed with the voies . And vrhat was that petition ? It was signed by nearly 3 , 500 , 000 of the people , and must be considered as the declaration of the intentions of that vast body which , if the Charter were passed , would "become the soTereign of the country—as a declaration of the intention of those who would then , in all probability , return the majority of the representatives sent to that House , Now , if he was bo to consider this petition , it- was impossible to look without considerable anxiety on such passages as these : — " Tour petitioners
com plain that they are enormously taxed to pay the interest of what is termed the National Debt—a debt amonnting at present to . £ 880 , 000 , 000 , being only a portion of the enermous amount expended in cruel and expensive wars , for the suppression of aU liberty , by men not authorised by tfea people , and "whe , consequently , had no right to tax posterity for the outrages committed by them upon mankind . " ( " Hear , hear , " from Mr . Hume , Mr . Duncombe , and others . ) Was he ( iliC Macaulay ) really to understand that cheer as an indication of an opinion that there was no right in the national creditor ? "Was he to take it as an expression of opinion that national bankruptcy would be just and politic ? If he was not so to understand it , he was utterly at a loss to comprehend what the passage meant .
For his own part , he conceived it was impossible to make a aistinction between the right of the fnndholder in dividends and tbe right of the landed proprietors in theland . It appears : ! , however , that the petitioners rr . a < ts no such distinction , for they declared against the monopoly of land . It was impossible to misunflerttand the n : eaning of these words in the petition— " That your petitioners deeply deplore the existence of any kind of monopoly in this nation ; and , whilst they urequivoca \; y condemn the levying of any tax upon the necessaries cf life , and upon those articles principally rt quired by the labouring rlas-ss , they are also sensible that the abolition cf any one monopoly will never nrjEiinckle labour from its misery , until the people possess that power under which all nionctioiy ar . d
oppression must ct . ase . The pttitioDc-rs respectfully mention tke existing monopolies of land . " Was thatj or was it not , intended to mean landed property ; was it not , in fact , following up the declaration b&fere made aB to the funds by a declaration that land property cusht to cease to exist ? They then went on to ccscplair . of the monopolies of patents , and the moncpoiies which they conceived to arise from the fixed capital of a man in the n > . "ehinery cf hia mill , or in rv machine of his own invention . They then mentioned tht ^ moEopoIies in travelling and transit ; and he n ' nnlv believed their meaning to be the confiscation cf ail railways rnd canals . It was hardly necessary for him to go further , for , if he understood Ihe petition right , he believed it to be a dee'aration that the remedies for
every evil under which this country suffered were to be found in a great and sweeping confiscation of all property—ihear , hear . ) Now , btlievir . g thrttobethe case , he was firmly convinced that the tfftct of any sarrh measure would be not only to ruin tbe rich , lut to-make the poor still poorer ; and thnt such a resnit would press more heavily on the labouring than upon any other class in the community . "While he cen-Biyed the doctrines c : ntiined in tke petition , hohsd no charge to bring against the great body of persons who had signed i ; : so far from i-ptahing or thinking ill of their conduct , hs did not blame them in any degreethey had acted as it was natural tbey should act . The petition was a sort of cry of existing distress , which desii ; nirje men had put into a bad and pernicious form
— ihear . ; If so , was t ! ae House to go out cf its ordinary -course cf proceeding , in order to give this petitien a reception of peculiar distinction ? Let it be remembered , that Hon . Members of tha ' , House had aJ ] the advantages of education , ar . d were very seldom tried by carmines half as severe as the petitioners had , it was admitted , undergone . . That Hon . Members had haTdly observed the operations of their own mitds , whtn they had suffered from iickaess , from vexations of any k ud , from pecuniary difficulties , or other forra 3 of adversity which happened u > everybody , and they failed to remember how unreasonable such things made them , and how ready they were to catch at ¦ what they could haicW hope Tfould relieve .
and to incur a greater evil for the sake of present and immediate indulgence ; therefore , he could not consider it 3 siraage thing that the poor man , whe saw Irs vrife grow thinner every day—vcho heard h : s ehUdren cry for food he ccuid iiot give them , should embrace that which ho was taught to believe would give him relief . Snch a man would easily be imposed u > oa frora the want of education , owin « partly to his own condition , and partly to the negitct , he ( Mr . Macaulay ) must say , cf the Govcrnmem uf ibis country . { Hear , hear . ) To those £ c-dtlemen who cried " Hear , " he would say , " Granting that education would remedy these evil ? , shall we not wait until education is given—shall we not wait until we see whether education will make them
unuerstand that the preservation of the sanctity _ of property was ju .-t as important to them as to the richest man in ihe country , or shall wo p : ic into their hands tho power cot only to ruin ourselves bu : themselves V ( Hear , hear , hear . ) Nothing could be more natural than that , when JookiDg a : the inequality of stations in this country , their minds should be excited , and that when they were told by designing men that if they had the power iu their own hands they might at any time ? ave themselves from all the calamities to which they were now exposed by goiag to the land ? , 10 the fund .-, to vrzchinery , to railroads , and to all tbose things v .-hith they ciil mo . ' .- 'poly , but which he ( Mr . Macaulay ) called property , it was natural th-. y should bu
deceived . He bore lo them ro rcore unkind feejiag than he did to a sick man , who in th& height of fWver might a ? k him for a draught of cold warer , which would be fata ] to him at the outset—he had no more ill-fteiing towards them than ha had to those who . when ho was in India during a scarcity , de .= ; red the granaries to be thrown open to them . However icreax the suffering in the one case or the distress in tne other , he would cot administer the cold water , neither wGuld he give the key of the granaries to theiaif starved population , because in the first case it wou / d be / atal , and in the other it would ouiy give temporary and deiusive reiltf , t . o be followed by an enormous increase of evij . Is ' o person here c ~> uld serious ' y entertain a donbt that such a spoliation o . ' '
prc-pmy as that to which thepetiui n pointed wou ; d c-e a serious tvil to the people , and an addition io ail the-r otht . r calamities . Ulcav , hear ) Well , then , if these were the things for ths sake of which they asked for the- Charter , upon what principle was it that he sbou'd consent to put into thc-ir hinds the pojrer to effect all these evils to ihe country and to themselves ? The only arguments to ^ U 5 e ^ * n favour of the House iD'errainieg the proposition would be , that really wr . tr tr .=- power came into their hands they would u-e it with greater caution . Surely that wo ' . i'd be , in tho firsr , pSac ? , a very ? trance reason for trv 5 ! inif this petition with peculiar respect , because it --id not contain the Gtliberatc views of thoee who sent it ; an = J , in ihe second place , it was coniraTv to human nature tbut persons arkin #
for gr ; -at concessions should put tbsir demand in term- ; kss acceptable to those who had the power to grair . or withhold it ; that they made their demand more odious than , ii" -thfy oltwined it , their practice wour-J be found to be ; 'iiai they pointed out to us tr . e evii cvv ~ . q-ier . c-. s tha" would ioi' . cv from granti :. j ; their demand , which evil conrvqsero . s would not follow : n rcaM'y , and which they never meditated . ' But , it rnki . t be r-id , thdr power would not b-j so u- " -: d . Uo > v was it po .-rible to doubt that pjw < r in ih-s han-is 0 * ' su ; -h men would be use < T f r evil ? 6 < -, ' -wl : ni ' :, wi hern h'Ad ont to them . Every pCT-on ivho hf srd h . ia nvst be aware of the kmd 0 : means which h : xd b-i- ^ n u = ed . There had been a svstemotic attempt raa ^ e to represent the Government es able to do i' : i the working clss = es thai which no Govcri : m-fit over had been or would be able to do ;
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ifle ci 2 ? i :- ^ GovvTUEjCTit , the Government were b&uiid support ihe people : as if the Government had some means of r . ever failing supply at their command—S 0 E 3 vas . fund of wea !* h with which 10 dispel poverty fic-m the h-jd ; as . if , like the ruiers of ancieni times , the Government could compel waters tram fhe rocks and call down bread from heaven , or as if they could perform over again at pleasure the miraculous phenomenon of ihe self-multiplying loaves—( hear , hsar ) . Informed as the people were in these doctrines , was i-. possible to believe that the moment Parliament gave them absolute suprerre power—for let it be observed this was what was asked for—that moment the people would forsake and forget their doctrines and principles ? The petitioners and those who tupported their view . ? in the House of Commons talked of cla ?> 'legislation at the very time they vrera for i : ' : n- to one class exclusive absolute power . The -effect 0 : granting the petition would be to put all property in every city , zn every village , in tverv £ the cl 2 ?
Look zt tho effect , in ih ' 13 point of view , of a % reeivg 10 the prcporition . tor Universal Suffrage . The Hon . Members i <) T Bi ' . h z . t . < i Mcntrcse , ( Mr . Roebuck and Mr . Hncie ) , thciuh they agreed on the prwc ; pl 3 of Look zt tho effect , int > ii 3 point of view , of agreeing 10 th ? prcpo :-ition ibr Universal Suffrage . The Hon . Members i ' mx Bi ' . h z . v . u Mcntrcse , ( Mr . Roebuck and * s 5 r . Hncie ) , thciuh they agreed on the prwcipb of
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out of fhe Reform Bill ; "what "would be tho disappointment of the petitioners with tho first Parliament which should assemble after the concession of Universal Suffrage , if they were to be told by Hon . Members and others in answer to their demands , " No , the interest of the National Debt must be paid . You shall lay your hands on do portion of the land ; the railways must not be touched , machinery shall remain in the hands of those v ? ho hold it . " Then with respect to the demands as to wages ; he ventured to say that if there were any notion among the petitioners that the wages of labour could be increased by means of measures to be adopted contemporaneously with the points of their petition , the delusion was most gross , because the moment of the adoption of those points would be the very moment when they were frightening from the country all that by which alone the wages of labour could exist . But was it possible that the 3 , 000 , 000 of petitioners
should think of tbi 3 when they had got power in their hands ? No ; they would complain bitterly that they had been deluded by those who taught the ¦ w orking classes to consider them as their friends . Ever since the pacing of the Reform Bill the House had heard from a great many persons who had expected to derire greater fruits from it , " You said that we should have the' the bill , the whole bill , and nothing but the bill , ' and , in fact , we have got ' nothing but tho biil' by reform , " aud did they think that these persons upan getting power into their own hands would allow the same result to occur again 1 But if the peoplo were not to be disappointed , and the £ 700 , 000 , 000 or £ 800 , 000 , 000 of capital in this country were to be taken from the present holders—if , in short , they could imagine this country given pp to spoliation , ho defied any man from any acquaintance with ancient or modern history to picture to hiraseH" anything like the amount of miser y that would ba caused . But would it
end with one spoliation \ How should ill The distress caused by the first spoliation would be doubled and trobh d by the still stronger measures of spoliation which must come on after the first ; and where would be the bulwarks to resist \ The very Government would stand by spoliation . Now , how was it possible to believe that the people who >; ad once broken through such a prescription as that "with which the rights of property and all our institutions were surrounded in this country , would bo found favourable to the prirjeipb of appropriation ? How this would operate , they had no experience to enable them , to fcuess ; the only way in which he could conceive a parallel to the condition the country would be in was by imagining that it would be something
more cruel and harder than the condition of a besieged city , only extending over a greater space and embracing a greater community—a community of 20 , 000 , 000 or 27 , 000 , 000 , a large portion cf them depending upon a trade with ail the end 3 of the world . Was it not possible that famine—such a famine as had never been known in Europefamine j n ined with pestilence—would come in the train of all this I It was sad to look beyond this ; but he must say that the further one looked forward through such a scene as this , the very best thiiig that he could expect—the House would think what it must be for any English public man to say so—would be , that a strong military despotism —( hear)—should be established , which
might give some sort of security to the fragments of property which mi ^ Ut be loft us . But if the country should think that after this they would ever again see those institutions under which we are now iiving they would bo mistaken . ( Hear , hear . ) They would never see them again , and they would deserve never to see them again ( hear , hear ) , and foreign nations would a ? k with interest , what had been the conduct of : his country to her people with respect to those institutions , and the story told them would be , " England had institutions which were great and glorious—institutions which were certainly cot free from imperfections , but which contained within themselves all the mean 3 of legally and constitutionally remedying those imperfections—institutions which , with but iitt ! e alteration , had continued for 150 yeais together ; thos-e institutions she threw
wantonly away , for no other reason but that she was told to do so by persons who told her at the same time that they would use tho power she gave them to ruin her . She ijavo that power ; s-ho has been ruined , and she deserved tn be ruined . " ( Hear , hear ) These weve the reasons which had determined him to vote against the motion of his Hon . Friend , and he inu .-t say , that ii" any F . on . Gentleman was disposed to grant Universal Suffrage , he . ( Mr . Macauia \ y ) thought that gentleman would do quite corifistently 10 votefor tho inquiry , but he must say that he found with some pain that his Hon . Friend , tho meiiiber for Leicester , ( Sir J . Easthope ) though agreeing with him ( Mr . Macaulay ) as tho Hon . Baronet seemed to do iu a great degree , nevertheless was about to vote for tho petitioners coming to the bar to advance the principles of this petition . Sir J . EASTHOPE . —To expound thrm .
Mr .-MACAULAY rrBumed . —He could find those principles quite enough expounded in tho petition itself ; but , however that might be , he was so much opposed to several of those principles that he could rwt so far violate trush as to prf-tend to feel any t-rea :, respect for the petition . Ho should therefore vote against it , and in doing so he should gtv-a the pt-u ' tio . ers much moro reason for contt-nt than those who voted for them now with the determination to vote against them hereafter . ( Hear , he : ; r . ) _ Mr . JIUEEUCK said , that the Right Hon . Gentkinan had betrun by professing great kiiuin . ts for ihe working clasfo ? , but he had ended with a des' -ripticn of the results which he said would follow , ii" I'arJiausent gave power to those laborious , industrious , prtins-takiiig , long suffering classes , which showed that the Right Hon . Gentleman ai bottom entertained no ereat kindness for those classes .
Tncre was one grand proposition on which the Right Hon . Gentleman ' s speech was based , and that proposition he ( Mr . Roebuck ) had teen elsewhere ; he had seen it elaborated in a form which left no doubt of its parentage in tho shapp of a discussion of rariumeiuary Reform in the Edinburgh Review . ( Hear , hear . ) The proposition of the Right Hon . Gentleman was this , — " I am not willing to give t ' : > a peop ' o power till I am assured that they will not , misuse it . " ( Hear . ) And the Right Hon . Gentleman eppealed to tiie petition itself to prove that he sought no : to a . rant the prayer of it . Now , he ( Mr . Roebuck ) migkt answer this in various ways , and _ firs :, he might deny the Right Hon . Gentleman's premises altogether —( hear ,
hear)btr , mounting much higher up , and asking on what principle tho House of Commons v .-as formed , be was prepared to maintain that the fcaaie principle , if carried , would bring together tao whole body of the people to confer on public affair * in that place . Thera was a natural d ^ siro in every man to profit by another's labour . Tno object of Government was to prevent that decire from breaking out iiito action . In a Mate of nature , if he ( Mr . Roebuck ) was strong , he obtained that which he dchircd ; as men advanced they met together and formed societies . Xn tb ; s country tho people had hit upon the principle of deputation to a few to do that which in former tiices was done in tho mark-. a-pJacc bj the whole body of tha people . The House of
Commons ' . hen sat there to prevent the dts : ro that f-ach man has of proiitin . ^ by anothe r ' s labuur from coming into action ; ; hey were put over tbe people to watch for then : ; but , then , that being the case , who was to watch them—to watch the watchers \—( hear . ) That couid only be done with effect by making tbe Hou .-o of Commons responsible to the people ; aud tr . e charge aga'nst the House of C . iamons on the pan of tho people was , that they d .-legated to a sp'a ' . l section the vower of enforcing th :. ? respon .-ibili-y , and that tha ; small section had j .-. iuttJ wr . h the "Houso of Commons to opj ) Vt : s tlia remainder ot ! hc people , and that they did opprc .-s the remainder of tho people— ( hear , hear . ) The Iti ^ ht-Ho . ' .-. Gentleman , holjiujf thj petition in his hn ; j < . s ,
h-id said , ilut the pet ; loners made a demand for the establishment , oi' a minimum of washes ; if this were £ e , ihiu ho ( JJr . Roebuck ) aslccd lion . Gentlemen on the uther side of vho ll > . ; ur . < whether they did i-. ol make a demand of ox :: ctiy i ! -e fame priui-iple in the Corn Laws ?— ( hear ) Tho itight Hoi ; . Gentleman suid , " -I am not willing to give the people power bfr-aiue they demand a minimum of wages ; " but he ( Mr . Roebuck ) said to tku House " remember , you have given power to the landed interest , and given them that power notwithstanding they aiked for u . minimum of prices . '' In principle where was the difference ? But all this was bail poiit cal economy , ssi . l some Hon Member ; this was bad economy , said the Edinburgh Review . 13 ur , bo
it bad poli ' . K-ui economy or good , the poor man wuiild come forward and say , " Yon have { : ivcn roc power , now 1 demand a tnhiintum ' of wages ' "' —( hear , hear ) . How often , when the Po ;> r Laws were befuro the House , had they been told that there were very many < d' ihe Miseries of the people that were cnti ' cly btyond the control of the House ? he agreed that at present it wa 3 so ; but if the people had a voice there , would it long be eo I The Right lion . Gentkman said that parts of the petition contained proposit iond adverse to the security of propei'ty . Let him Olr . Roebuck ) point to the great organ of the Conservative paTty—The Times newspaper—aud ask did it not every day bris ? g out projects and assert principles quite as extravagant , quite as fierce , quite as directly av . d pointedly against the security ot property as those contained in that extremely
unwise , and , he would say , extremely foolish , petition ! —( hear , Lear ) . But were those who signed this petition really unfit to govern themselves ? Separate the people ot this country into classes , and they would see which of them were against property ; the classes who hud a share in education were r . ot against—tlie er . lightened machanic ? , they were not against property . The Right Hon . Gentleman had said , that if " any one class was dependent upon property and the security of property , that cl 353 was the labouring cla ?? , and ¦¦ yethe wished io make out that this class was so blind to their ival interests iiud 10 all thai piudence would dictate , that it was that class of all others which would bs willing to reduce the country to the condition of a dtsert . Now , he ( Mr . R . ebuck ) judged the pecp'e cf England cthprwiso ; he did aoi ju < . 1 go by : he ' words 0 ! the foolish , malignant , cowardly
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demagogue who had written that petition . Ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) knew where to put his finger upon the man , and he was convinced it was hot that man who was entitled to stand forward as tho representative of the labouring classes . He would ask those Hon . Members who Had borne witness to the long-suffuring of the industrious classes , amidst the privations and distresses to which they had been exposed , and which they were yet daily suffering , what was the cnaractcr of his fellow-countrymen \ Yes , it was fromthote sufferings that ho judged of his fellowcountrymen , and riot from the trashy doctrine contained in the petition , which wouid bo of itself ridiculous but for the grandeur of the multitude of names appended to it . What they asked was ,, for
the power which they saw their fellow-citizens-en-305 mg . What they complained of was , that their fellow-citizens , whom they know to be made by nature no better than themselves , were selected aa tae repositories of power . / That , was a distinction which was peculiarly galling to them . . But ho did not believe , speaking from tho knowledge which he had of hi 8 fellow-citizsr ] s , and it had been his fortuno to mix much with them j . that their belief was general * bat the great accidents that regulato tho happinesa of their -lives-were' within the power of the Government . In fact , he believed that the class to which he referred was as enlightened aa the present electoral body- ^( hear . ) Well then , if they were a 3 enlightened as the present electoral body , let the Houso consider that this country had wealth , and
had security for property under the prosent electoral body . Why then should the country not have the same under the labouring classes 1 If they were as worthy to be electors as the present body , why was he ( Mr . Roebuck ) to conclude that under them the country would be involved in that auarchy which had been painted by the somewhat terrifio pencil of the Right Hon . Gentleman ? That was Jioi . his ( Mr . Roebuck ' s ) judgment of the people of England . If ho was wrong , what kept them from displaying their real character ! -He-affirmed * that the Government had not physical force adequate to keep them down . If they were to rise as one man , as they might do , the Executive had nothing but what was bui as a rush to keep them down with . Whatthen keptthem down 1 They kept quiet from knowing that the advantages which they and their ancestors had derived from obedience to the law
were not to be thrown away slightly , and that was their only feeling in the matter . And if be were to ba asked by what his countrymen were peculiarly distinguished from other nations of Europe , aud from tha peoplo of all other countries that he knew of , he should say the distinguishing feature in their character was obodieiico to the law . —( hear , hear . ) It had happened to himself and many other Hon . Members to travel in other countries ; he asked those Hon . Members what was the case thero I On tho Continent it was said la force was
everywhere——hero it was ohedienco to tha law . The feeble constable without any question took the offender into custody sokly from tho moral feeling of tho people . It , w . a 3 not physical force , but law , that bore sway here , and this it was that made him believe that if the whole body of tho people ruled the country he should walk home just as quietly as he should ; that -evening—'( hear . ) Such was his confidence in his fellow countrymen—( huar , hear . ) Ho believed that if ever there had been a Jibel spoken —he uid not say bo in any Sense that could be painful to the right lion . 'Gentleman , — -but ' if . ever there was a libel ' bpoR . cn . up'Hi his patient , his forbearing , his industrious fellow-countrymen , it was that idle declaiming which said that they were unable to
govern themselves . Why , it was they who have done everything for this country—upon them rested the whole fabric of English prosperity and greatness , and now the . very fact of this peaceful oi'gan . izjtiou for the attainment of what they believed to be their natural and paliu ' ! rights was a lesson which the world had never seen before . Tho Right Hon . Gentleman-himself was-learned in the history of the world—could he point his finger to a single event , in history , that in its nature was like that which they had seen yesterday upon the floor of that house 2 What was that event of yesterday ? It , was tho p-ac-cful act of 3 , 500 , 000 people , who had all joined together throughout the length and breadth of the land—in the open markets and in tho crowded towns
— in ths by-ways anl in the highways—who had assembled in peace , and { fully relied en tho security of the law , and had signed the document which was then laid beforo the House , iu which they a ? kcd b ^ pjtitiou for the indulgence of a right which they in their hearts believed to belong to them . ( Il . far " . ) They had not- risen up as an armod roan ; they had not banded together against the law ; they had conducted themselves peacefully , calmly , prudently , forbearingly ; they had come and called upon t ! . e llou ? o to hear them ; and yet , with that document to point at , tho Right Hon . Gentleman concluded thut ? o striking--an example and so extraordinary an incident in the history of man was'to be thrown a' ^ idc as nothing , and that he was justified
in hxing his crmcany acrimonious eye upon tne . turning of sentences , his almost grammarianhke sagacity in insight into language , while he altogether forgot tho larg ' .-r and more striking features of an act by which S , 00 i ) , 000 of his fellow-countrymen who were noc now admitted within the pale of the coasutution h = id cjino to that House , and in so entirely , peaceable a manner petitioned for that as an indulgence which they fully believed to be their . own as a right . ( Hear . ) Now , let it not bo supposed that he . ( Mr . Roel-uc . 'O agreed with 0110 hundredth part of t > . propositions contained m that poiition . ( Hoar . ) What he did ask for tho petitioners was , simply that they should . be heard . ( Hear . ) He--wanted no quibble to help him out of the difficulty . The Hon . Member for ' Ilochdale had , on a former evening , aefced for the very same taiug , and how had he bceu met by the Hon . Baronet , the Member for
Leicester I He novv eaw i-oniethiiig that he did not see beforo . ( Hear . ) What that something might be it was not for him ( Mr , Roebuck ) to say —( a iau « h from tho Opposition bonche . i )— but now , forsooth , though the demand was precisely , the same as thai niadr by the Hon * Member for Rochdale— ( bear ) - ^ the Hon . Member for Leicester took a different cour . se . Inquiry ! "To propound their opinions ; to state why they thought their evils aroso from baa k-gifclation , " said 1 tho Uon . iJcmbvr for Leicfsttr ; why , that wa 9 esacily the proposition of tho Hon . Member for Rochdale on the former night , and yet , though tho lion . Baronet then voted agaiusi the iuocion , he now came down , and , having Boina special right oti the subject , said ho should vote for the 3 , 000 , 000 of ' . petitioners . ( Hear , hear . ) He ( Mr . Roebuck ) did not want t" do that son of thing . 11 a "wanted no ( -xcns-i for the vote which he should
give on iho ' preBunt-. ' occasion . He had voted for the Hon . Member ior Rochdale on tho former , occasion , and he shou'd voti with tho Hon . Mombcrfor Finsbury now , not for tho petition a-i a , whole , not for everything contained in tiio petition , but for what was raiied the CJiartcr—foi' that wa-a the way to put ir . He should voto . xV-r tho Charier , becausevhe believed that tho' peoplo ou ^ ht to be admitted into the pul- ; of tjhc con ^ iuution , and because , from what btudy ' ho had been abiu to-eivo to tlio hi . t > l' 7 oi
Kiaukii c ) , mm irom what couswt-ratioa lie hau'had of n ; un ' a liatui'f , ho believed that the best government that could be got for any people , whether looking to tho ni-cer-sides of instruction-, the interests of wcalfh . cr to-any of tho peculiar cirQumstancea affecting particular nations—that the bubt governincut tuat cpuld bo got \ yas that which proceeded from the , whole ; at \ d it did strike him , that if touwrrvYf they could transform , by legislative means , not by any violent revolution , that Houst * . into a complete representation of . the peoplo of-England , there won Id rot be one . iota , of d : ff < . 'reiice as to all the
ink-rtsLs a ; : d tcadencus ot property lii . this country — . with tins bimple , peculiar , and adv-aritaj . -ec .-us exception , that evtry man iu that case wor . ii have thr prvceeda of hs own labour , with only so much f uken i'jcDi it a-i would / brai his fair- share of coiiliibiition to the s-:-a- «— ( lu-a )) . Ti « at wa 9 not tfrq-case now , and thai io was n « t was thw evil of . wJiieh the people iontphined . They did i : or avsurb that all the evite wiih wlnciv they wore affl cl <) A "wire at ' . ribn-iaWe to . tilts government under which they had lived , but lirJi a iurxo portion of tho evils { m .-y Wore hbtm-r . ig K-ud'tr-might fairly be aJtribnttd tt > the mode in winch that Heus was con .- ; tiiut ^ d They dti-lcred that , being unreprcsenk-d , they pn . i . d more largely towards the expenccs of the ctaf . 0 than to do
they ou ^ ht with n-furenpe-to theii- condition aud lHiinbcrs . The caaso of'tKia they asriertcd to bt ; the ; r want of power in that House , and , rea-« riiifii ; from tho acts of the majority of -that House & ¦ ' - at present constituted , tb * y felc that they had b . en , and wer , unfairly dealt with , Therefore they , the long-sufferi-ng , paiient pbople , now at last asked for a share in the government of the country —( . hear ) . Now , compare the .-picture , that had been drav .-u by the Right Hon . Gentleman with the events that had occurred in that-House dunag the present year . They baa been told of the necessity of placing the government in the hands of the arit > - tofii \ icy only ; now , what had beeu their . experience of a' few months working of that description of
government i The people being in a state 01 distress , finiiugfood seamy and dear , asked the governing body of the country , when they met , to lessen that distress by lowering the price of food . What was ths answer ? Why , the aristocracy most vehemently , most decisively , most completely , declared that they would do no such thing ,. Upon the arguments that had been used against the claims of ihe working classes by the R * ght Hon . Gentleman he ( Mr . Roebuck ) would be entitled at once to say , that a spirit of rapine prevailed with that aristocra , tical body . Takini ? this instance , not oi" wild language
( hear ) , but of determined resistance-to the cry bf- . t'he whole suffering population , he was entitled to , say , on the principle laid down by the Right Hon . Gentleman , that the aristocracy in ; that House were actuated by a spir it- of rapine , ( lk No . ") Let" him not by misunderstood . He had borne very patiently vviih ihe counter ar ^ umtnt , and he hoped they would listen patiently to him —( hear . ) He maintaiiicd that he would bo aaiviy entitled , i ; i accordance wvih" the arguiy . iiUt of the Ri ^ ht Hon . Gentleman , to a \ -j that . ¦ tho-GyTei " i 5 iaent which could act so was actuated by a spirit ti' rapine aud plunder , and only kept tha people down by the power ' they . possessed
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by having the arms in their hands ; .. " . 'Going ' -a-little further , however , he would say that the existing majority in that Housej haying the power in their handa , asd not feeling the pressure of misery upon them , had no means of knowing what that distress was , and that , therefore , they would be doing , not only the poor , but the rich , a benefit by sending into that House those who would be ekcted by the people themselves , and would be able to-shew , them what the evils , were that had been created by their class legislation . And let them not suppose that by admitting the labouring classes to a share in the representation of tho country the power of electing representatives would not bo borne still by the whole population . Were they to suppose that wealth and
intelligence would cease to exercise their natural influence I Did they imagine that only the wild , the unintelligent , would govern the country in that case ? No ; it would be therich and the intelligent who would still , by force of their position aud their education , govern the country . No people were ever yet governed by the ignorant , or by any but those which might be called the thinking and leisure classes . The only effect of creating euch a Government as the petitioners desired would bo , that , they would still have wealth exercising its < iua . andlegimate influence with the aid of intellect , whereas the influence now ' . exercised'was a malign influence , doing mischief and working out evil instead , of £ ood . Tho difference between the
Right Hon . Gentleman and himself was , that he had great fa . it h in the good feeling , patience , and virtue of his fellow-countrymen , which the Right Honourable -Gentleman seemed to doubt , believing as he did that thoy ought not to be trusted with posver , forming his opinion , as he did , from the petition that had been laid upon the table of the House , and shutting his eyes to the experience which ho ought to have had while journeying through this large country , hemu * st have had of the constant forbearance of liis fellow-countrymen;—tho Right Hon . Gentleman , shutting his eyes to all this experience , and judging only by the paper on the table , declared thay the labouring classes were unworthy of tho trust which it was sought to repose ia them—that they \ vould be cruel and take delight in rapine and wanton spoil and bloodshed—that when they found peace they would make war , that of this cultivated land
they would make a desert , and that that great country which they themselves had almost entirely raised to its present prosperity and greatnefs , they , if in power , would be the first , to"reduce to one wild scene of bloodshed , anarchy , arid confusion ; for this reason it was that the Right Hon . Gentleman declared that as long as ho held aseat in that House ho would resist the demand of the peoplo for a share in the representation . Ho ( Mr . Roebuck ) could not follow the Right Hon . Geatleman in that course . For his own part , what little ability he had should be devoted to thc-ser . vi . ee of those classes upon whom the opinion of the Ri » ht Hon . Gentleman cast such a stigma . He believad that he should be best doing them service by speaking of them with calmness , consideration , an > l aiFection , and by e : i 3 cavouring to do for them thut which they had a right to expect at his hands . He would endeavour to tha beat of
ma power to render them equal-in point of political privileges with any of those who now sent members to that House , by not allowing any servile class to roaiaiu , believing -as he did that property would be most secure when his labouring 'fellow-countrymen had the most power in the country —( hear ) . Lord F . EGERTON said , ably and ingeniously as the Hon . and Learned Member- for Bath usually conducted his arguments , lie had ; on the present occasion moro th ; m ever applied the ingenuity of the debator to the question at issue . Tho Hon . and Learned Member had carefully . avoided "' the real question -before the House . The Right Hon Genileman the member for Edinburgh had , with his ' u ' susl ability and manliness , made » declaration of his
opinion on certain points , for which , he was pefeetly justified in looking to the petition itself . For from that petition , which tho'Hon . and Learned Member had designated as trashy and contemptible , he was enabled to . show ' what were the opinions of tho 3 , 500 , 000 of petitioners on the subject of Universal Suffrage and of tho use they would make of the power it would giva them . They had no reason whatever for belbying that the petitioners were not sincere ,, yr that thq Ri ^ ht Hon . G- ; r > UeiHan , drawing his inferences from the statements in their petition , had overestimated the consequences which might bo expected to follow such an extension of the suffrage as was contemplated by the petitioners . Is was , tiiere ' cre , not quitofair in the Hon . and Learned
Member for Bath to draw ,, as bs had done , their attention away from -the petition itself , which formed the question before them , to those abstract political subjbci . 3 which he had brought under their consideration . The Hon . Member fi / r Bath seemed to expect son : o new Atlantics or Utopia to arise , in which everything would bo conducted upon principles of tho strictest justice ; but ho ( Lord Lord F . iigerton ) agreed with the Right Hon . Gentleman in thinking" that it was ccucn more probable that the armed man would arise . They had . never seen an Utopia in any country , but they had seen a Cromwell in this country , and that too under circumstances of less urgent necessity than those which would doubtless arise were tho fctate of -things contemplated by this petition to take place . Agreeing as he did in almost all that had fallen from the Right Hon . Gentlcmu the member for Edinburgh , and
feeling that the Hon . and Learned Member had wot fairly met the question , throwing aside the paition as he had done altogether , he preferred to give a vote which ho had no doubt would expose him to unpopularity , but the comcquences of which he was fuliy ' prepared to meet . Mr . HA . WES thought the representatives of larger constituencies were bound to express their opinion on a question of this sort , in order that there might be no doubt as to their view * . ' Any difficulty which he ( Mr . Bawcs ) might have in voting on this occasion had been removed by the speech of the Hon . and Learned Gentleman the member for Bath , who , with the _ nianliness and straightforwardness thai had alwaysdi&ti . n ^ uishcdhiBi'iu f-h ' at House , had declared thai it was not for the petition that ho was about to vote , but for the Charter . On that sole ground he ( Mr . Hawes ) differed v .: th hid Hon . Friend . He did
not concur with him in supposing that to grant universal suffrage would be either safe or prudent , but on < he other hand he utterly disclaimed any want oi trust , regard , respect , or --affection for the people . Ho thougut ho was at least in a position to resist tho general and abstract views of reform . contained iu the'Chai't-er , for when had ho ever resisted any measure of practical reform or the gradual and progressive extension of the political rights of the people ? lie believed that the adoption , of the measures claimed by this petit : on would aggravate the eviis complained of . For all practical projects of improvement he was , as ho . ever had been , disposed sii . cetely to vote ; but , as to the present proposal , he Gould no ' t feal it cousiiiteut with a duo regard for the public interest to lend it his support , ( dear . )
Mr . HU . ME regretted the course taken : by some cf his Hon . Friends . iN ' or did ha deem their reasoning at all valid , it was-said , for instance , that tho-t'hariiot-petition contained iutempeiate expressions . But was it j ' a-iv to brand a whol . o body—and now immensely liir ^ e body—of feliow-coui . tryuien wuh such seuti-mema as iho imprudence of a . few mitihl givo expression to ? Would it bo fair to apply this rule to the party opposite , and to charge them wuh the refcpov . aibiluy of the lan ^ usije ' - used in one of their grciii periodicals— " that England would flourish to-morrovV it' the manufactures were aU-tngulfeu I" [ Sir R . i ' cel here said , "I know nothing Of tlut luugua ^ e . " ] Then the Right Hen . Gentleman knew nothing of the expression of public
upuiion . ( Laughter J . Cue the fiabstauce of tho Chartist case was well st-otsd in their petition , the a : gurneijts of which no ono could controvert . (]* Oh , " and laughter . ) No honest man could deny them . ( Renevvt-d luughtei ' , and a cry of , " Ths national lanli . " ) It was very unfair toi charge'tho Chart ^ ts .-with an intention to destroy the debt , or iiijure the cixdit oi tho nation . ( " Kead the petition . " ) Read it youraoif ( said the Hon . -Men ; her , amidst ' great laughter . ) Let the a-rguajeiits . of the petition bo cxumiHed . ( Tha H ;> n . Member went through them one by oi . e . ) Were not they all founded iu truth and justice 2 The mode of avoid- , ing revoiutum was to look to and apply themselves to the well-founded complaints of the people . Their
patience and-forbearance- had been already sufficiently manifested , and the more especially " sq ' -wheii ' it was considered thai many cf their cluimsrwere mo ' so .-juif and reasonable . ( Hear , and cries of " Oh , oh ¦!") Who could d ^ iiy tho truth of some of tho propositions in the ' petition I if ' , like himself , they differed from the pciiiicnvrs on one . or two pointsif , for example , thuy ditft-red from them . hi opiHi ' oii as to tho character cf tho New Poor Law—whs that any reason why they should neglect to satisfy claims which were based on every principle of justice and reason ? Tiicy migat depend upon it that the peace of the country depended upon their listening . patiently and attentively to those claims . The petitioners deplored the existence of any kind
of monopoly , and urged that the abolition of any ono monopoly would never unshacklo laiour until the people possessed that power under which all monopoly and oppression must cease . Waa not this a reasonable proposition ? ( Cries © f "Read on . ") He had no objection to read on , Tho . . petitioners in the next paragraph mentioned the monopolies of machinery and laud as monopolies which ought to be abolished . ( Cries-of "Hear , hear . ") Well v and if they complained of these monopolies , so did he ( Mr . Hume . ) \" Oh , oh ! " and iroaical cheers ) He said , that the law of entail heaped every sovt of
misery upon this country . ' ( " 0 ^! " and hughter . ) Why , email and primogenituvo produced the raouopoiy of land . ( Shouts oi' laughter . ) Why , ba : d the Hon . Member , why do you laugh ? ( Rtsnowed laughter . ) 1 am-giving you an explanation of ail this—( " Oh . ' . " and laughter ) - as well as I can give an explanation . ( Ciics of "Hoar , " and laugh-if ' r . ) Yes , 01 course , you laugh at the hiisfortunes ' of -yc . «? fellovv-meii , ( erifc 3 oi' , 'Oh , oh !") ihat ia tho only way of interpreting your laugh , ( " Gh ., oa ! " ) or c is-j I am a very - . imperfect expounder oi" yoni " . {" fi-li-. j . s . ( Loud laughter aud ironv ^ al oh «' ws . ) Wtli , lau ; ih away I I am obliged t . o y ou f-ju reyeailng your real
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opinions ( Renewed laughter , ) Ecce sit / num { A . shoni of . " laughter . ) The Hon . Member then proceeded to read a 1 ' s'tt ' er ' from d correspondent at Manchester , detailing the distress in that town and in the adjoining borc . ugh of Salford . These were the scenes , he said , which were horrifying the country ; and yet , these were tlie scenes the details of which elicited laughter iu that house , and for which they r « eglccted to apply any remedial measure of legislation . Day after day , session after session , they frittered away in partv disputes without doing anything for the
benefit of the peoplo . They did not attempt to deny the extent of the public sufferiug , but yet the coursa of their legislation only tended to increase the evils under which the public laboured . ' -... Considering-thafc . justice and policy deitianded that . theso claim 3 should be couceded , and also considering that it was a calumny on the people of England to say that ii'in possession of their rights they would commence ; the bad Work of spoliation and robbery , ha should most decidedly give his vote in favour of the proposition before the Hcuie .
Mr , VV AELEY had heard with extreme surprise and regret the speech delivered that , evening by the Hon . Member-ibr Lambeth , and lio mivit fiay that he was sorry to find any single ilcmber of one of the nffwly-efllranchised metropolitan boroughs prepared to vote against to reasonable and jui r / a proposition" as that Under consideraticn —(" oh ! oh !') When the metropolitan boroughs were enfranchised , it was feared tl , at through their rxicans some very troublesome Members would obtain admission into that House—( hear , hear)—Members wj- ' pso principles " were as objectionable to the majority opposite , as the . sentiments contained iu tho petitioij on tho ta ' blo .. ' Ho thpufe ' j ) t , hotveyer , that ! he House had . lvttla reason to complain of sueh annoyance , and certainly they would have still less if all the Members for those boroughs were ta take a political lesson from tho book , of " reform , as it . was read
by the rion . Member of for Lambeth , That book was a large volume , bus he thought he mi ^ ht search it through in vain to find tho page which contained tlie specific principles of that Hon . Gentleman . If , however , he was surprised at his speech , he was equally , if not more surprised , at the silence preserved by Members on tho Ministerial Benches . He had expecled on a questicn affdctiiig iho rig ' tit .-5 and interests-of the working clashes , that the eloquence of Hon .. Gentlemen opposite , which had been so kindly exerted on the subject in other places , and which had been followed by successive- . -. ruurids . of Kentish i 5 re , would have b . ' ca licard : in thf ir favour on the present occasion —( hear , hear . ) He had entertaiiied somo hbpe that those- who-. were &o ' -loud
in their . denunciations of the Whi ^ s .-for ' -negleciiing the interests cf the people , would no ; , in this instance , have forgotten their ibrmer advocacy . Though . no voice on the olhei' sidd has yet beea raised , fur that purpose , ho hoped that' bejore the debate concluded , they would como to-the . aid ' cf the people , and never , could they do so . with , better effect— ( cheers and laughter . ) The discussion' of this quest ton-had- iu his opinion taken too % vidc a range . The proposition before the House was a simple ' .-ono * and its' statement might be comprised in a jiutEhell . It was merely this—3 , 300 , 000 of their Icllow-countrymen asked " permission to . state thtir triuvances at the Bar oi' thu House , and the reply to be given to it was " , " or " no . " That was the simple question
stripped of all disguise , and the answer to ba giveu would show whether the people were sJil'to entertain a haps of justice from that House , or v . hethtr tho reply-would fill with disappointment and indignation upwards of 3 , 000 , 000 of their iVllov ; -countrymen . Even tho very , hesitation of tha Houso to answer-in . 'tho affirmative showed the . justice . of the rrquc 5 fc made by the petitioners —( iicav , hciir , hear . ) 3 , o 00 , 000 petitioners sought an oppoitunity of stating their grievances at the bar til'the liuiiso , $ nd the House hesitated to answer their ju = t detj and . . . The petitioners ' .-. at" the outset alleged that they were unrepresented-in that assembly . .. The ' -i why not yield to their request , and allow tluru in 'their own way to make -their candid and honest E'tateoient ?—fiiear ) .
Could that-bo considered a land > .-f liberty or . justice where " so fair -a ' -request was refused I— - ( "hear , hear ) . Was it not ouiy fair , after nhat had fallen from aa eminent Whig leader , to see these men , to In ar their statements , and permit them to show that they were not the ' -turbulent and sanguinary bbinga that they had been represented \— ( cheers ) . For his own part , he v . a ' 5 surprised to hear a . gentJeman of such lively imagination , of such comprehensive judgment , and such eiteneive intellectual power-, J ; ive such .. '' an appaiiing description of tho ciiaracier of t . 'ie people of Euglan . d '—( loud cheers ) . WLy , wncr ' p did the Kiiiht Hen . Geutlenvaw vemGei—ho > v diu no pass his time I— ( cheers ) . With" whom' did he associate % — ( hear , hear ) — what books had he read ?—( cheers
and laughter)—or where . could-he find ai . jg htwhich would wairant or justify tha d'escriptica which he had given of upwards of 3 , 000 , COO of Englishmen Where" would the Right Hon . Gentleman select his SDc . cim ' eus . 'to prove the truth of liia description i Would he . fi . ud them-ia tV . e s ^ avy \ W . ere the sailors of Great Britain mutinous , cowardly , or treacherous ? — ( hear , hear ) . Were the Foldiers of thi 3 country mutinous , pusillanimous ,, or disobedient ; . !—( hear , hear ) . What was this character of our'merchant ? , of our professions , o our trades!—( hear , hear ) . Waa it not' too bad to make such -sweeping assertions , and condemn a whole people in the mass . Let the-Right lioiu Gentleman , if bo cculd , point out ar ' sirode class to whom the ' . description would
apply . Would he s ; ry ' . the' ca ' rpe ' piers-. ? - Would he say the smiths ? Would he fay the shoemakers ? Tho circumstances were such as to demand eoaiething . niorb tangible and . specific , . than the Right Hon . Gentleman had favoured the House with—( hear , hear ) . He ( Mr . Wakley ) was not so favourable to tho petition as tho Lion . Member for Edinburgh . had represented 'liiiaseJf to be . On tke contrary , there wero many points in it in which he did not concur , ar . d if any member in tho PIsuss : was bound more -than antther for Supporting the iaotion that the ' petitioners should be heard ac the bar , ifc wa 3 the . Right Hon . Member for . Edinburgh ,, seeing what an aptitude and readineaa ha exhibited in showing his progress as a scholar in the school
Of reform—( cheers and laughter ) . It was only tea years since that he was opposed to such an extension of the suffrage , and he was still opposed to that point ; but he had since then-come round to the five other points of tho Charter—( hear ) . Je ivas toba pres-umed , therefore , that v / hen the lliul . t Hon . . Gentle ' man-bad- - 'heard" tha arguments which mi » ht be urged in its favour , it woulct be possible to bring him to a , favourable reception of the sixth . Thoiigh ; the Right Hon . Gentleman has declartd his determination torfsisi ; Universal Suffrage , yet as hel-ad made no HuaHty resolution , it might be pKcSible to induce him to ' make seme approach to it . II .: ( Mr . Wakley ) hoped the House would not , by deeidinij against . theniutioii f excite dissatisfactios . aud t-i-eoijtentaraongat
upjvaras . yf ' . 3 , 000 , 000 people . He v-a- j awa . ro it Blight bo-lilted that the voto upon the . quciuo . a would be construed into sayiiig " Ayo" or ' Ko" &a to the'Charter , but he der . ied . m toto tha ; . ' , was capable of such construction . He , . tor his pixrj was not an advocate for Annual Parliaments , biing of opiiiitin . that , Triennial ParliawtrAa Vfoulil . woik much bettt-r . He . disclaicic'd . the question as being one which involved the adopcion or rejection of the Charter . It \ vas simply v . iisthcr , a 3 hB had paid before , 3 ; 300 , 000 of their follow-countrym-.-ii wouid or would not be permitted ,. ' with thvir own tongues , to state tluir-griivaiices , in their oyv : i . ' JanKuisgo , 2 A the bar ' of the House— ( hear , hear . ) Wastiia licme , he would ask , deter mined i at all hazavd . to stand by
the present system . of representation- ? Wiist . hc- £ 1 . 0 consti : uciicy so pure and iivc-rruptibio r . s t ; ba the beit which could be sdoeted ¦? Look io the disclosures made in the -Committees V ( spec ; i !; g the gross corruption which characterised the lust election . Was Jtha "; corruptiou M-a cti » sd-by ths v / orking people—by those taechaiiics who had b \ 'tn ' f-o described by the Right'Hon . Gentiem ' aTi ? No ; it \ yus the work of the very electors whom that Hvuko had-. cliosea a 3 the V 6 . ry basis of a - . coiistitut'imy— ( hear , hear . ) Nothing eouid ba more cia . , gt ; r (> i ! 3 to ' tho constitution of the co » n : ry tban . the . pruct-ices which had been exposed in the "late iivqitu-y . They uahiugod all reliance- ppoij oar social ihs 1 . itli-uion ' : * . aid created aa astouishratut in the public rnind to t-iink-th ' : nuch abuses uod corruptions . sin uid be . so opoiily pr < ictised . '' . The working-people ainibaccd the' iddit to
tne leg-ia' -a ' . urc . They demanded t 0-- b 3- . -a . dmSj . ted withiu ' ths pale o-f the constitution , that thcy . ' mighfc endeavour . to cU : anse tha foul stream of corruption ; and , in his opinion , their req . ueiC ^ as a reasonableono . Ha had seen much of the working peoplo-of this couutry—judee'd , fi-. w had seen raore . Ho had aiso seen ' mach oi' xhe working people iii other countries , end he ccrnld corilidentiy say , ihab he never vritnt ? SBd . ' rnoro hontit sincerity , " ovraore . real and sterling ; worth , than the working men' of England exhibited —( loudchcars ) -. He was glad to hear ; ha ^ opinion cheered by Hon . Gentlemen eppojite ;" ' How then could they reconcile it to . themselves to i-etaia those . . people ' . in the position of a--serviie ... cl : i c s ? Hovz could they say that the inhabitant cf a £ 10 house yvas better or ni'j ? & trustworthy th : « n he v / ho inhabited - a £ 5 house ? In what did the
snpariority exV . t ? . Was it in the brick unttraortay - ^ ivas ii ia the furniture or attire—^ or was 15 ia feeling and intollecl -in head and heart ? - ( hsarj Before the New Poor Law was CDactc . d-. ith . cn > was little necessity ia the country for bolt or bar ; no > rural police . Y * 3 re required j but now the pesple felt the injustice of the enactments levelled against them j and ' . vhen tko Right Hoa . Cfcutloinart- ' the member for Edinburgh aiked what \ tovjM -be'ttift ( jbaracter of the lawsjif ihey were enacted by the pe-iipkiho should . remsmbcrthtit none could be , mora- crH ' pl pr-saiigainary .. thas the Iscw Poor Law . Wf ^ tii .-it-was coibidered hy . v it pres 3 ad upeathe widr . w as-i the orphan and -ilia ' aged octpfienamn , hs w jtihi-fearlessly ..- ask what law coxiid i > e more crual in , it ~ op-ratioj ) , and ha would add thai the workipg r ^ ople co ; i-d ii&vcreracfc a _ law agamatthoari&to ^ . acv . o : a moro s ' . v . ^ re nalur ' e . Under the cn-eumsian .- erf ia which-thi «? country vrag , p laced , and . coniHlaxi ' , ^ the- . £ ii ? trex . ivv-i-, : ' - ' ;' i-prevailed , j -ne-thougnt irincuof Otu 5 oil the ilou-. V- ii ' ik-utbthe ! taie-ot tho pdtmor .-crd .-aiid hear th ' o ' F . ^ tv .- 'lioiit of fhfir
« nevaac ? s- ; -. aP ;| he should ' thc ^^ rs , . 'Cflusidernig j that they wct *_ . unrepresented hi : J ; e /!• :: ^ , give hi 3 j ^ aiosi « rfl » ! : y support to the . un'tioii . " J ( iiiir , hpaj :. ) ( Continued in our eighth png « O
Untitled Article
- I ' ' - . ' ' ¦ ¦ ¦ ' ¦ - ¦ ¦ : ¦¦ - ' ¦ ' . ; '' . ; - - .-. ¦ ; ¦¦ " ' ' - : :- ' THE NORTHERN STAR . : V ____^_;
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), May 7, 1842, page 5, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct753/page/5/
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