On this page
-
Text (1)
-
Untitled Article
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
-
-
Transcript
-
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
Additionally, when viewing full transcripts, extracted text may not be in the same order as the original document.
Untitled Article
that every man in this House is deeply interested in maintaining the prosperity of the land of this country ; I say there is no man in this House who wishes to secure that prosperity by unjust legislation . ( Cheers , and counter cheers . ) I adjure those gentlemen who are the representatives of large towns , to condescend to ponder over these observations , and not to be led away in our present debates by the prejudice of former discussions , but clearly to understand the position in which we now stand , our different relations to each other , and that we are alike
interested not only in the greatness of this country , but in the existence 01 the institutions of this country . Xet them take another course—I trust they will not—but of this I feel convinced , that if they are still alienated from us—if they still proceed in the way of illusory progress—they may arrive at the goal which they contemplate—they may achieve the objects which they have set before them ; but I believe they will be greatly disappointed in the result , and they will find they have only changed a first-rate kingdom into a second-rate republic . ( Loud cheers . )
Lord John Bttssei , l , disregarding his provocative speech , simply set himself to state the actual position of the question on which the House was about to vote . He adverted to the doubts and difficulties which accompanied each renewal of the income-tax , and which disturbed and shook our whole financial system . He then briefly recapitulated the principal advantages of the Grorernment scheme , and remarked upon the inconsistency between the amendment and the mode in which the scheme had been met in the debate . The advocates of the land did not seek to have one tax taken off , or to resist one new burden , but because land bore a heavier tax than trade , the former was to bear the same tax as then , and the hitter one somewhat lower . Since Marmont marched
his army , which thought it was going to fight for the Emperor , into the midst of the Prussian and Austrian forces , there had been no such military move as that of Mr . Disraeli . His lordship then applied himself to the argument for altering the income-tax , and urged the great objection , that of admitting the principle of alteration , which would finally lead to breaking up the tax . He adverted to the scheme for separately taxing the f undholder , whose real security lay in his being taxed with the rest of the community , a scheme he had regarded with great apprehension . He remarked that Mr . Disraeli , when in office , should have respected the precedent of Mr . Pitt , IiOrd Lansdowne , and Sir It . Peel , and his own position , and have made himself master of every detail of his own scheme , before he came down to the House with it . Briefly meeting some of the other objections he adverted to the case of Ireland , and reminded Mr . Disraeli that he had
himself actually voted for imposing the income-tax on Ireland at a time when she was less able to bear it than now—rather a remarkable case of inconsistency . He showed that Ireland , under the Government scheme , would be relieved of 670 , 0002 . a year , and charged with 258 , 000 Z ., so that she would gain 412 , 000 Z . ; but he did not look so much to mere figures , or to the immediate effect on taxation , as to the question of relief to the consumer , and especially to the poor consumer , who would be largely benefittecl . He referred to his own former course in regard to the income-tax and otherwise , alluded to by Mr . Disraeli , and frankly admitted that the course Parliament had taken had beeja > in his judgment more beneficial than that he had himself recommended . In reference to the legacy duty , he said that groat exaggerations had been indulged in , that instead of 2 , 000 , 000 Z . being thrown upon the land , about 500 , 000 Z ., or at most 700 , 000 £ . would bo imposed , and by the time that duty came into full play the income-tax would be largely reduced .
" , " he continued , bringing his calm speech to a close with some spirit , and an honourable allusion to Mr . Gladstone , " in the course of those discussions , beginning with the plan of proposing the removarof prohibitions and of differential duties , we havo come in the course of time to the abolition of those duties which press more especially upon the people , and which have deprived them of much comfort and enjoyment . I believe that this House caunofc more worthily consult tho intorests of tho people than by pursuing this course . It was said last year—I think it was a proof of littlo wisdom in him who said it—that we should endeavour to rule this country so as to chock tho advances of democracy . You may depend upon it
that the ruler who sets himself to check tho advance of democracy will but increase , will but irritate , will but ultimately make more triumphant that power which ho seeks to resist . But if you consult tho interest of tho people , you will mnko the democracy conservative—you will carry that democracy with you , instead of opposing it as an enemy . ( Cheers . ) That , it seems to mo , id tho true policy for Parliament to pursue—neither neglecting the interests of tho land nor the interests of trude , but consulting all together—showing no undue favour to any class , but adopting a course which each must acknowledge to bo just . ( Hear . ) Sir , I rojoieo that towards'the ¦ termination of this course which Parliament lins now for
nearly twelve years pursued , my right honourable friond tho Chancellor of tho Exchequer has had an opportunity of laying propositions before this Houho which , whether wo consider thoso propositions' tliomsolvos , or whether wo consider the manner in which they woro introduced , must givo him a name to bo envied amongst Finance Ministers of this country . ¦ ( Cheers . ) And it " , sir , in order to achieve this , it has boon his fortune to live laborious days , I trust that ho will find his reward in tho approbation and support of this Houho , and in tho gratitude of an admiring country . ( Loud cheers . )" Tho committee divided shortly before two o ' clock , und tho iminboru were—For the amendment .... 252 Against it 323 Majority for Govcrnmont . . 71 Progress was reported , mid tho IIouso roauinod .
The debate , resumed on Thursday , had an unexpected development and outbreak of Irish inaccuracy and fury . Mr . Cecil Lawless moved an amendment , that the words " Great Britain" be substituted for " United Kingdom . " Mr . Lawless did not support Sir Bulwer Lytton ' s resolution , considering it a party move for the purpose of restoring to power a Tory Government ,
which encouraged inquiry into Maynooth , inspection of convents , and prosecution of priests . But he opposed the extension of the income-tax to Ireland on . independent grounds . Colonel Dunne , who had voted with Sir Bulwer Lytton , considered the present motion ridiculous , as Mj . Lawless had not supported Sir Bulwer . Mr . Scttixt referred to Hansard , to show that the colonel himself had once voted for an Irish incometax .
Mr . C . Or . Duffy did not like this " sham battle . " As to not supporting the insulters of nunneries he , Mr . Lawless , was sitting next but one to Mr . Druvnmond ; he was supporting a party once called " base , bloody , and brutal , " on account of their coercion acts , and he was voting with the authors of the Titles Bill . Mr . Duffy then compared the Opposition section of the brigade with the Ministerial division of the same body .
Mr . Scully had said that some Irish members took no interest in Ireland ; but he could tell him they took no interest in Downing-strcet ; they were " upright and consistent . " Sir Robert Peel , even at a moment of disordered finance , had not laid the income-tax on Ireland . Mr . Gladstone had clone it with the Treasury full . On many stated points Mr . Duffy objected to the Budget , and then pointedly alluded to the " many Irish members" who supported the Ministry .
" I am sure that many of them voted from conscientious niotives ; but short as my own experience in Parliament has been , I do not think that in the worst days of the Walpoles or the Pelhams a more unscrupulous corruption existed than I have seen practised , under my own eyes , of corrupting Irish members . " These words led to a scene of much excitement and irregularity . Shouts of " Name , name , " rang defiantly from the Ministerial benches , to which Mr . Duffy repeatedly said that he would name if the chairman demanded it . Mr . John Bail and Mr . Scully again and again asked , amid disorderly cries
of " order , " that the " words be taken down ;" then Mr . Ball himself took down the words on a slip of paper , and handed them in to the chairman . After this some Irish members rose and made exclamations , anything but explanatory ; others attempted to speak ; many " cheered" and cried " Oh , oh ! " The whole proceedings were becoming unparliamentary , when ( Mr . Duffy having , in reply to the chairman , admitted the accuracy of Mr . Ball ' s report of his words ) Lord John Russell expressed his opinion . The House should remember the circumstances under which the words were used . After they had been spoken cries
of Name" arose , and then Mr . Duffy passed on to another topic . If he meant only a vague assertion he might be justified in doing that ; but if he meant to make an assertion affecting the honour and integrity of Irish members in that House he ought to be ready to establish it . If not the Committee must consider that he id utterly unable to prove a single word of what he has uttered . ( Cheers . ) If Mr . Dufly offers to " charge Irish members individvally" then let the words be taken down ; but unless he makes such an offer " it will be better for the committee to treat theso words with contempt , and not to notice them . " ( Cheers . )
Mr . Lucas thought the words had been misconstrued . The words were that " corruption had been practised towards the Irish members ; " the imputation was upon the Government , and might or mi ^ lit not bo applied to the Irish members . Mr . Puillimokk thought this explanation hnd increased the offence . It concerned tho honour of the House to know what member of tho Government had used " the grossest corruption . " Mr . Otway considered Mr . Lucus ' ti report incorrect , wllilo ,, Mr . Ei > waui > BalIj ( who was seated near Mr . Dufly ) pronounced it correct . Mr . Bouvuniu ( chairman ) fh' » t pronouncing the words decidedly disorderly , put tho question as to tho words being taken down .
Mr . Dishakm hero interposed to declare a distinction . The words did not impute corrupt motives but they inado n distinct allegation of corrupt conduct . That allegation was not disorderly . It might be that a Minister was guilty of corrupt conduct ; und any member making such a charge is but acting on his right . ( Cheers . ) Ho hoped the committee would act with duo caution . Lord Palmkubtokt : I am perfectly reuily to admit tho accuracy of tho statement of tho right honourable member for Bucks opposite , thut it-ia competent for any honourable member in tho House to impugn tho conduct of nny member of tho Govornmoiit of tho di » y
in any way in which it may appear to him that he has grounds for stating the accusation ; and so far as the charge of the honourable member for New Ross against the Government goes , I challenge him to prove it . ( Great cheering . ) I want no taking down of the words used , or reporting them to the Speaker . The Charge has been made , and I defy him to prove it . ( Renewed cheering . ) So far as the charge goes against Irish members of this House , the matter stands upon a
different footing . The honourable member for New Ross has made a charge which , whatever may be the particular words used , implied anyliow an imputation upon the honour and conduct of his Irish colleagues in the House . Lord Palmerston then suggested to Mr . Duffy that he should say that he did not impute dishonourable conduct to any Irish member , and that his words were but uttered in the warmth of debate . That would be a fair , handsome , and candid course .
During these and previous remarks there were loud calls for " Mr . Duffy " but he remained silent . Mr . Lucas again spoke on his behalf , saying that the words did " not mean an imputation on the Irish members . " Sir Geokge Grey pointed out that Mr . Duffy himself had admitted the accuracy of the words . Mr . Lucas rejoined , that he had not denied the accuracy of the words as taken down , but he had denied the accuracy of the meaning given to them by Lord Palmerston . Mr . H . A . Herbert said , that Lord Palmerston . ' s advice would have been responded to by any person deserving the name of , but " I hesitate to use the word . " ( Prolonged cheering . ) The uproar and the calls for Mr . Duffy continued . At length he rose , and said , amid many interruptions : —
" I should have hoped , Mr . Bouvene , that under the circumstances in which I stand—assailed as I have been and called upon to answer , under circumstances which , I presume , are considered serious—I should have hoped , I say , that I should have been protected against such offensive language as that just addressed to me . I do not think such conduct creditable to an assembly of English gentlemen . I say I do not think it creditable that any assembly of Englishmen should have applauded language such as that which the honourable meinhfir for Kerry has thought proper to use . There are , sir , two circumstances in relation to what I said which I wish to explain to the
committee . One of them is , that , with respect to the phrase ' which has been so much& > velt upon , ' Under my own eyes , ' I was observing that , short as was my experience of this house and of public life , I had seen certain things , and the phrase ' under my own eyes' meant during the time I had been a member of this house ( Oh , oh . ) I do not mean to alter a single word of what I said , and honourable members at the back of the Treasury need not' cackle' out of time . ( Cheers and laughter . ) I wish the committee to understand that the phrase ' under my own eyes , ' taken in connexion with what preceded it , meant during the time I had been a member of this house . The other circumstance is this . As the interpretation put upon my words by my honourable friend the member for Meath has led to some' discussion , I wish to say that there is much of it
inseparable from the facts of the case . I was instancing tho conduct of Ministers . Walpole was a Minister ana corrupted Parliament , as history tells us—Pclham was a Minister and corrupted Parliament , as history tells us . I was instancing tho corruption effected by Ministers , and I came down to our own time , and the shape which I gave my statement—having theso two circumstances in viowwas that it was my conviction that during the time I had been in the IFouso tho present Government hnd operated upon certain Irish members in a fashion ( Oh , oli , and immense confusion . ) The statement wliieh I washed to convey to the House was , that tho same land of influence employed by Walpolo and Pel ham scorned to ino to havo been employed to influence the votes of a certain small number of Irinh membors . ( Loud cries from tho Ministerial side of ' name . ' )"
Mr . Duffy then confessed that he was not experienced in the forms of the House , but " one tiling lie would not do—he would not unsay anything ho hnd said . " If the committee wished he would explain the facts ; but if they wished him to withdraw the language and H « y it was not true , he would take the consequences . If tlio majority of the House desired it he wou / d name the pcrsonn he had alluded to . Mr . Bitiuirr considered that tho explanation altered *
the case . The charge was a general one against tfio Government of having used mean . s of corruption ; he ( Mr . Bright ) would not like to hnVo to do / end any Government from such u charge . Then ' , Irish members , / though they came from tho west should bo allowed ; un Oriental latitude in their Inn ^ iiugc . Such general chargos of corruption had tarn often made in the House , and carncxt men are apt to uso such expressions as tb . OfQ'U complained of ; but lie was sure Mr . Duffy did not mean to transgress tho rules of the House .
Lord John Kuhbkll , iiguin interposing ; euid , that Mr . Disraeli was right ; a member might , without being - disorderly , impute corrupt conduct to tho Government , liut Mr . Dully had accused the Irish members of corrupt motives . Mr . Dully could take three courses , retra ct the words , uh having been used in the heat of debate , offer to substantiate them by a special charge * or act in a third way , neither prove tho ^ WOT ^ jLJlOr hxyo tho luauUnoBs to rctruct them . ( Choferii . ) * * 3 SfiiL f » ^ Vfjlf' -i ^ T ' * t ^ ' Wrt ' % ,
Untitled Article
May 7 , 1853 . ] THE LEADER . 435
-
-
Citation
-
Leader (1850-1860), May 7, 1853, page 435, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/l/issues/vm2-ncseproduct1985/page/3/
-