On this page
- Departments (1)
-
Text (3)
-
MARCH 6 , 1849. m rT ti TV! r\ r» m tt *...
-
Imperial 3§arltamtnt
-
M0XDAY, Pebkcary 26. HOUSE OF LORDS. — H...
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
-
-
Transcript
-
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
Additionally, when viewing full transcripts, extracted text may not be in the same order as the original document.
March 6 , 1849. M Rt Ti Tv! R\ R» M Tt *...
MARCH 6 , 1849 . m rT ti TV ! r \ r » m tt * -i * _ TjHE JSOBTHfiRN STAR .
Imperial 3§Arltamtnt
Imperial 3 § arltamtnt
M0xday, Pebkcary 26. House Of Lords. — H...
M 0 XDAY , Pebkcary 26 . HOUSE OF LORDS . — Habeas Courrs Act Slsvexsiox Bill . —The Marquis of Laxsdowse moved the third reading of this bill . Lord BnoucHAM ( who must have some one to abuse for the time being ) would take that opportunity of saying that he had the other ni ght understated the misconduct of a juryman on the trial of Duffy in Dublin—a person called Burko . lie had since learnt that upon going into the jury-box this man stated that no consideration upon earth should induce him to convict the prisoner ; and when the jury were discharged , because they could not agree on their verdict , this man mounted a car , narrangued theniob , huzzaed , and went to his inn in triumph . Nothing could be more disgusting in a
J ' uror , or , in fact , in any christian man , than to have teen gu'lty of such corrupt and flagitious conduct . He wished it to be understood that a juror was not to he protected , from the fact of his being a juror , from any outrages which he mi ght commit . In the whole of his experience he had never seen a court worse treated throujhout the whole proceedings than were the learned and reverend judges by whom Mr . Duffy was tried , by the counsel engaged for the defence . Their object seemed to be to quarrel Avith the court , in order that they might throw Aip their brief , and say to the people out of doors , " "VVe can get no justice . " ( Hear , hear . ) The conduct of the court , however , had been most forbearing—the reverend judges had behaved with great dignity , tempered with perfect suavity towards the persons from whom they had received such insults .
Lord Campbell concurred in these sentiments . The bill was then read a third time and passed . The Marriages asd Registration- of Biktus ( Scotlixp ) Bills passed through committee . HOUSE OF COMMOXS . —Ex g usr Workmen ix Fraxce . —In reply to a question from Mr . B . COCHRAXE , Lord J . RCSSEIX stated that his noble friend Lord Palmerstou had received a satisfactory assurance from the French government that they were readyto pay the sums deposited in the French savings banks , by the British Avorkmcn who were compelled to leave France on the breaking out ofthe revolution last year , as soon as it was ascertained who were the parties who had the claims . Chuech Jobbery . —Mr . uousxus , after referring at considerable length to the circumstances attending the rectory of Bishopwearmouth , and with the view of giving Lord J . Russell a further opportunity of explanation , inasmuch as it was now understood
Ms former one was neither satisfactory nor correct , begged to ask whether in any of the points referred to in the noble lord ' s former answers as to the gross incomes of the rectory , the future income of the incumbent , the application of the surplus revenue , or the feeling of the parishioners as represented by the ancient vestry , there was anything requiring correction . Lord " T . Russell replied , that on the third point there had certainly been an error , not as the hon . gentleman supposed in the statement sent by the Bishop of Durham , but in his ( Lord J . Russell ' s ) reading of it The Bishop of Durham stated that the wayleaves and coal rents would be placed in the lands of trustees forthe benefit ofthe chapelrics amounting to £ 1 , 600 a year , and on the hon . member s asking whether that sum would be paid to the incumbents of the other chapelries , his reply was concluding that that was the contemplated arrangement , in the affirmative . In that inference , hoAVeverit appeared he had been mistaken .
, Mr . IlonsMAX asked whether , in the noble lord ' s opinion , the bishop had any authority to divert any portion ofthe temporalities provided by law to the incumbent to any other purpose ? Lord J . llcssELL did not consider the bishop would have any authority to divert the revenues settled by law as the income ofthe living , whether arising from rents or other sources , and if that had been done in any ease he imagined there would be a legal remedy . Tisxscixi , Kefokm . —Mr . Cobdex on the question of going into committee of suppl y , rose to interpose the following resolution , by way of amendment : — * ' That the net expenditure of the government for the year , 18-35 , ( parliamentary papeivXb . 260 , 1 S 47 ) , amounted to £ 44 , 422 , 000 ; that the net expenditure
ofthe year ended January 5 , 1849 ( parliamentary paper , * >* o . 1 , 1849 ) , amounted to £ 54 , 185 , 000 ; the increase of nearly ten millions haying been caused principally by successive augmentations of our warlike estnbiislunents , and outlays for dcfcnsh'C armaments : that no foreign danger , or necessary cost of the civil government , nor indispensable disbursement for the services in our dependencies abroad , warrant the contimiancc of this increase of expenditure : that the taxes required to meet the present expenditure impede the operations of agriculture and manufactures , and diminish the funds for the employment of labour in all branches of productive industry , thereby increasing pauperism and crime , and adding grievously to the local and' general burdens of the people : that- to diminish these
evils , it is expedient that this House take steps to reduce the annual expenditure , with all practicable speed , to an amount which , within the last fourteen years , lias proved to be sufficient for the maintenance of the security , honour , and dignity of the nation . " Tho hon- gentleman commenced the speech with which he prefaced these resolutions , b y briefl y explaining the objects which he had in view in thus submitting them to the House , lie was of opinion that the general question of our financial position should precede the discussion of the estimates hi detail . He did not wish the House to think that he entertained the idea that what he proposed to do could be done instantcr ; all that he then sought being that the House should at once
express its opinion as to the desirableness of taking some steps in the direction of reduction to as great an extent as possible . He contrasted the expenditure of France and England : —Xow , sir , on this subject we can take a very much more severe view of our neighbours' affairs than we can of our own . "We have had the finances ofthe French government very much criticised and remarked upon in this country of late . Xow , the French accounts are kept in a very different , and I tliink superior way from ours . In the French accounts you have the gross £ unis put down on the debit and credit sides . For instance , the cost of collection , all the drawbacks , and everything which in this country is pnt down as charges of collection of revenue , you have put down ia the cross revenue of accounts in France .
Besides , in France you have a great number of items charged that we put down here as local expenditure . For instance , they have a lflr * £ item for tlic reli g ious instruction of the people ; they have items for roads and bridges , the whole of their education , and ateliers nationaux . We have heard a great deal of their cost of workshops , forgetting that we have our ateliers nationau , in every workhouse in England . ( Hear , hear . ) I will just read to the House what is the amount of expenditure in Ensland for public objects of the Same kind as are inserted in the French budget . Our imperial expenditure is £ 54 , 000 , 000 ; and here I beg to say that I will only give the figures in round numbers , omitting the hundreds and thousands , and that in every ease I will engage to be
under the real amounts . ( Hear . ) Our imperial expenditure , then , is , £ 54 , 000 , 000 , Our cost of collection and other amounts not paid into the exchequer is £ 7 , 000 , 000 . Our expenditure for the relief of the poor in the United Kingdom is £ 8 , 000 , 000 . Our county rates I put down at £ 1 , 000 , 000 ; our highway rates are £ 1 , 000 , 000 ; religion , £ 6 , 000 , 000 —making a gross total altogether of £ 77 , 000 , 000 . 2 fow , we have heard it stated in this country that the French government , in the year of the revolution and when they were in an exceptional state , had expended £ 72 , 000 , 000 . In this country we expended £ 77 , 000 , 000 for similar objects . >" ay more , I have left out our expense for hospitals and education , thoush I believe that if every item was included , and a fair comparison made , we should
have an expenditure of £ 80 , 000 , 000 in . England aoainst £ 72 , 000 , 000 in France , for a population of 2 J ? , 00 » , 000 against a population of 3 ( 5 , 000 , 000 . ( Hear , hear . ) Sow , sir , that I think is calculated to make us enter on the consideration of this question in a mode calculated , if possible , to diminish this enormous amount of expenditure ; and in bringing forward these local charges , I must say that we have lost sight , a great deal too much , of the increase of late years which has taken place in the local taxation of this country—( hear , hear )—for this country differs from every other in this respect , that we have four or five different local and legislative bodies taxing the people in different ways for a variety of objects . If we look at the increase in our local expenditure , we shall see somethinff
deserving of our serious and solemn attention . I will take tie amount for the relief and maintenance of the poor in the United Kingdom . In the year 1837 that amount was £ 4 , 300 , 000 ; bvthelatcst * accounts it was £ 8 , 341 , 000 ; and I take 1837 as the first starting point , because , in that year , the new Poor law was brought into full operation in this country , and we had effected a considerable reduction in the expenditure for the relief of the poor , and thought that the new law would have prevented any increase . "Whv , in England alone , since that time the increase has ' been fifty percent , for the relief of the poor . ( Hear hear ) In county rates it has been the same . Forthe vear 1835 the county rates amounted to
£ 671 , 000 , For the year ending Michaelmas 1 ^ 4 / thev were £ 1 , 266 , 000—nearly double again for county rates since 1835 . ( Hear . ) And I must say that 1 think local charges of this kind form a much truer index ofthe state of the country than the imperial taxation , for bear in mind that these items ot poor rates and county ratesare for the support of pauperism , the construction and maintenance oi gaols , and other objects of that kind . In fact , your local taxation is a kind of barometer , showing the social state ofthe country ; and I must say that the progress of these rates for the last fourteen or fifteen Jears has been of a most discouraguig and alarming S i ( Hear , hear . ) And there is another view of wo question . You cannot diminisb . these local
M0xday, Pebkcary 26. House Of Lords. — H...
rates , you cannot keep them down , or prevent their increase , b y any means you may resort to in the localities themselves . It is my firm belief that the progress of extravagance in your imperial legislature is the cause ofthe growth of pauperism and crime in your several localities , and that to amend and check this you must apply , the remedy in this House by general legislation . * ( Hear , hear . ) The hon . gentleman then justified himself by precedent for reverting to the standard of expenditure afforded by the year 1835 . He then compared the expenditure of 1835 with that of last year . The increase during the interval had been about ten millions Looking at the items of our expenditure , he confessed that there Avas but one in connexion with which any very great reductions could be
effectedthe item connected with our military establishment . He then pointed out the successive addict 0113 = ^ Lad been made t 0 u since 1835- So less than 5 , 000 seamen were added to the naw in 1836 , to protect us agamst the Russians . Where was the danger from the Russians , now ?—and vet the 5 , 000 meU s 0 tUl remained in the navv . In ' l 838 , no less than 8 , 00 . 0 men were added to * the armv , to meet the exigency ofthe Canadian rebellion . That rebellion had been suppressed in a few months , but the 8 , 000 men we had to the present day . In 1839 , the ri ght hon . member for the city of London ( Lord J . Russell ) , who Avas then Home Secretary , moved for an increase of 5 , 000 men rank and file for the army , and he told . us what they were wanted for . There had been an apprehended
insurrection at Monmouth : I allude to the affair of Frost , Williams , and Jones . There was some turbulence in that part of the country b y the Chartist party , and the noble lord told T 15 that 5 , 000 men were required to meet those domestic troubles . Well , but we have had an interval of several years of uninterrupted peace at home , during which the Chartists have been scarcely heard of , and yet there remain these 5 , 000 men . ( Loud cheers . ) We never heard of their reduction . ( Hear , hear . ) Our difficulties in China , our interference with Syria , and the M'Leod dispute in America , led , in 1841 , to the addition of 5 , 000 sailors to the navy : these difficulties , interferences , and disputes had passed away , but the 5 , 000 sailors still remained on our hands . In the following year we had an addition to the
navy of 4 , 000 men more , to enable us to meet the exigencies of the Maine boundary question : the treaty of Washington put an end to that question , but the increase Avas perpetuated . In 1845 a dispute arose between this country and America , respecting the Oregon boundary . An addition was that year made to our military estimates of no less than £ 1 , 700 , 000 . That dispute was happily terminated , but no reduction had since been made in the estimates . But in 1846 , no sooner was the Oregon question settled , than we entered into diplomatic quarrel with France respecting the Spanish marriages . I call it a di plomatic quarrel , though I might call it a court quarrel—( hear , hear)—for the people of this country bad no interest in it . But it gave rise to bad blood in France , and a state of irritation .
in this country , and the press of the two countries fanned the flame , and no one could deny that there | was a great alienation , if not hostility , between the two countries . That was increased by the previous publication of Prince Joinville ' s pamphlet , and also by the old grudge in the case of Mr . Prichard . This produced a bad spirit betAveen us and France , and , accordingly , we increased our " miscellaneous " that year by £ 1 , 200 , 000 . In 1847 the same spirit continued between the two countries , until we had discussions about fortifying our coasts against an attack from France ; and at the end of' 47 we had a panic amongst us , and we were then persuaded by Mr . Pigou , the gunpowder maker—( loud laug hter ) —that the French were actually coming to attack us . ( Renewed laughter . ) We had another increase of army and ordnance in ' 47 to the amount of £ 1 , 000 , 000 . The actual increase for army , navy , and ordnance in ' 47 was , I believe , £ 1 , 600 , 000 , but
whether exceptions be taken to some of the items I knoAv not . I ask the House whether there is one of the causes which led to these successive augmentations of our marine , army , and ordnance Avhich now remains ? ( Hear , hear . ) The last of Avhich I have spoken , I think , might have been the most serious of all , though , as I stated , it was only a diplomatic quarrel : but as it became dynastic , and as tho second generation , in the person of Prince Jbinvillc , had entered into it , it might have grown into something serious between the two countries , if the question had not been sokedby a very rude handthe late revolution in France—which has put an end to all possibility of quarrelling between us and France on the subject of the marriages ia Spain . ( Hear . ) For , whatever other grounds of danger and apprehension may remain , no one need apprehend that France and England will quarrel about tho successor to the Spanish crovrn . ( Hear , hear . ) Not one of the causes which had led to these
successive augmentations to our army , navy , and ordnance now remained . Indeed , so far as our foreign relations were concerned , Ave were on a far better footing now than in 1 S 35 , when our military expenditure was comparativel y low . They Avere told that our establishments were too low that year , but this he denied . Having shown that there was nothing in the present state of our foreign relations to justify our present expenditure , the honourable gentleman then proceeded to examine how far our military outlays upon our colonies were justifiable by the real exigencies of the case . After referring to some other colonies , he said;—In Xca y Zealand you have 3 , 000 rank and file , and not 20 , 000 European inhabitants ; that is about one soldier for every ten colonists : that one soldier bavin ? been carried from
England , at the expense ofthe people ofthe country , a distance of 12 , 000 or 15 , 000 miles , to be fed and clothed in the midst of a people , every one of whom carries his own rifle , and Iuioavs how to use it . In Australia you are bound to send an armed force of 2 , 000 or 3 , 000 as a police force to look after the convicts ; but where there is no such danger—where there arc no aboriginal inhabitants , and not even a beast of prey to injure the colonists , I do say it is bad policy and gross injustice to compel us to pay for a military establishment , which the colonists themselves would prefer being without , provided you g ive them the control of their own affairs . I do believe that much of this force is kept up to enable our Colonial Office to administer its affairs in the way it docs . ( Hear , hear . ) That it is kept up
more to enable the government to keep doAvn the population than to protect that population against an enemy . ( Hear , hear . ) I consider that free trade has enabled you to reduce your expenditure to a less point than 1835 , and yet leave you all the necessary force you may require for protection at home . It has been shown that only one-third of our troops are permanentl y employed " in tins country , while two-thirds arc maintained for the colonies . That is a system which requires a change , and if you do change it you can no longer have any difficulty in making the reduction I call for . I am aAvare that repeating armaments at home , you have now a much larger force in England and Ireland than in 1835 . I am very sorry it is so ; and I think there has preA'ailcd a ihost exaggerated idea as to the
necessity of that force . Last year all AA'ere in a panic , and could not reason on the subject . But Ave haA e no longer tliat excuse , while the trials in the courts of law in reference to the disturbances that did take place have thrown much li g ht upon what has been unworthily dignified by the name of insurrection . It has been clearly shown that neither in England nor Ireland have there been 100 men confederated together with arms to war against the crown and goA'crnment of this country . I belieA'e that that comedy of a revolution was never sustained by meetings of more than thirty men , and of these six or eight were spies . ( A laugh . ) I believe , moreover , if Avhat I have heard from magistrates and others be true , that whatever of revolutionary feeling there was in the disturbance here came from
Hibernian inspiration , that if it had not been lor the Irish elements there would have been no turbulence amongst the English population . Besides , it should be recollected , that in justice to that country and to the mass of the WBrking people , that for eighteen months previous to the outbreak of the French Revolution , they had passed through a crisis of "reat difficulty , privation , and suffering . ( Hear , hear . ) This pressure of 1847 was felt particularly in the counties of York and Lancaster , and yet not the sli g htest tendency to turbulence or political excitement of any kind Avas evinced . The people believed in their conscience that every ounce of food that could find its way to this country was admitted into it—they knew that the Ifavigation Laws were susnended . and they felt that the government had not
placed themselves in antagonism to them , and with this conviction on their mind they abstained from all acts of hostility towards the government , and evinced those of perfect loyalty andorder . Is ' otwithstandin" this , attempts , which I own have filled me with feelings of surprise , not unmixed with indignation , have been made to prove that it has been our troops , and our artillery , and the hundreds of thousandsof special constables alone who prevented a lanre portion of the people of this country f rom rising into rebellion . I don't believe it- { "ear hearV-and I am happy to think I have no reason to believe it ; for if it were true it would be very unfortunate forthe country . There is another point I feel bound to notice in justice to the people of this country , and in mercy to those deluded men who are now exniatinff their crimes or follies ,
or both . I hope that at some future time it will be considered , particularl y in reference to the case of the young men , that Avhen they erred this country was exposed to the influence of an electric shock which had been felt all through Europe , and that it was not an unnatural thing that men with vivid fancies or sanguine temperaments , or who felt keenly for the sufferings of the people , should have been seized with the idea of revolutionising the country . Jon . had every reason to expect some attempt of the kmd , and have noAV reason to congratulate yourselves that after a short interval you should find so little trace of it . But the conclusion I draw from all this is , that you cannot at the present moment take the condition ofthe people as a justification for keeping nn a larger military force iu England than usual . On the ground , therefore ,
M0xday, Pebkcary 26. House Of Lords. — H...
of our foreign relations , on the ground of our colonial connexions , and with reference to our domestic position , I see no reason whatever to prevent tlie executive government from being authorised by this house , as an act of justice and mercy to the * taxpayers of the nation , largely to reduce our naval and military forces . ( Hear , hear . ) It is not my intention to tell you on this occasion what I would do with the money saved , or how you might relieve the commercial and agricultural industry of the country by a large remission of taxation , I ivill
not anticipate the opportunities which hon . gentlemen opposite Avillgivcme of proving to them that if they wish to abolish the malt tax and the hop duties , it must and can only be effected by their voting for some such measure as I propose . I am prepared to remove every obstacle I can to the full use and development of labour and capital , whether in agriculture or manufactures . ( Hear , hear . ) It was impossible , however , there could he any effective reduction of taxation , unless it was preceded by a large reduction of expenditure , and whether he looked at the state of affairs abroad or at home
he thought this av . is a proper time to make that reduction . Mr . Cobden thus concluded : — At all events , I think it will not be difficult to reduce tho expenditure to Avhat it avas in 1335 . ( Hear , hear . ) I can only say , if it were left to me to do it , I Avould do it in this way : I Avould spend not more than ten millions for our armaments ; I would have them as efficient as thoy could be , but they should not cost more than ten millions . I would have the remainder for the civil expenditure ; I Avould have £ 1 , 000 , 000 more for tliat as there would be 1 , 600 , 000 less for the military and naval expenditure . ( Hear , hear . ) Thus preserving the total amount as it was in 1835 ; but giving one and a half million more to the civil expenditure , and taking it from the military and naval expenditure , you may ,
I am confident , return to the expenditure of 183 o . ( Hear , hear . ) And I venture to predict , having had some previous experience in watching the development of public opinion , that nothing less will satisfy the people of this country . The feeling in favour of economy has grown much within the last year . ( Hear , hear . ) This House itself bears witness of it . ( Hear , hear . ) I have seen such evidence of the progress of opinion on this subject that I have not the least doubt , in a comparatively short time , the expenditure of this country may he brought back to the expenditure of 1835 . ( Hear , hear . ) I will conclude b y merel y saying , that I consider , in advocating the reduction of expenditure , I am advocating the removal of those impediments to industry which cause disease , pauperism , and crime in the country ;
a measure which Avill tend to make the people contented and happy citizens , instead of being miserable , dejected , and disaffected ; in giving men something to fight for in this country , something to preserve , and to loA-e , instead of making them the enemies of our institutions . ( Hear , hear . ) Every stop that you take in that Avay , in mitigating the pressure of taxation on the people and showing that a government of this kind may be carried on as cheaply as the governments in other countries , vein do more to preserve your institutions ; ay , and will do more to preserve yourselves from foreign attacks than any amount which you can expend in militaryand naA-alpreparatiohs . ( Cheers . ) The Chancellor ofthe Exchequer complimented Mi - . Cobden upon tho temperate manner in which he had brought this' subject forward , and glancing slightly at the subject of local taxation which had
, little connexion with the question , ohserAed , that Mr . Cobden ' s argument for assuming 1835 as a standard to which wc should go back depended lipon two conditions ; first , that in that year adequate provision Avas made' for the public service ; and secondly , that no subsequent changes had taken place calling for increase . The exesss of £ 0 , 763 , 000 of expenditure in 1848 over that of 1835 , Avas not ; he remarked , attributable to the angmontation of thenaA-al and military establishments alone ; and he undertook to show that it was not consistent Avith the true interests of the country—the protection of life and property at home , and of trade and commerce abroad—to effect a reduction iu these establishments to the extent proposed by Mr . Cobden . The right hon . gentleman then proceeded to show
the grounds upon which the successive additions which had been made to the number of men both in the navy and army were perfectl y justifiable . A large increased expenditure had lately been incurred in the necessary creation of a steam navy , an expenditure which might now be greatly reduced , and in which some considerable reductions had already been made . Great improvements had also recently been made in the manufacture of arms , and much expense had been incurred in providing our force with improved Avcapons , Avithout which it would be both cruel and impolitic to send it into the field . But expenses of this nature were only temporary in their character , and much of the augmentations complained of consisted of such expenses . It had , therefore , not been
without reason that the greater part , at least , of these augmentations had been made . Ho Avas as favourable as any one could be to practical retrenchment , but he was far from seeing his way to such sweeping- reductions as Avere proposed by Mr . Cobden . He then proceeded to sIioav that the goA ernmcnt had not been unmindful of its duty as regarded its care of the pockets of the people . We were now in a very different position from that which we occupied . about this time last year . Our foreign relations were in a much more satisfactory condition than then , nor was there now any prospect of a disturbance ofthe peace at home . It was these considerations that had induced the Government to come to tho conclusion of proposing SOHIC reductions to the House which it Avould not
otherwise have felt it its duty to do . The government had now the power of proposing a considerable reduction both in the army and navy . The army , last year , stood at 113 , 000 . It was now proposed to reduce it to 103 , 000 menacing a reduction of 10 , 000 men . A reduction of expenditure Avas effected last year , without a reduction of our force , to the extent of £ 828 , 500 . The reductions in the estimates of this year , as compared , not Avith the ori ginal , but with the reduced , estimates of last year , would amount , in connexion with the navy , to upwards of £ 730 , 000 ; in connexion with the army , to about £ 378 , 624 ; in connexion Avith the ordnance , to £ 337 , 873 ; these reductions amounting in all to £ 1 , 447 , 353 . As compared with the original estimates ot last year , they would amount to
£ 2 , 275 , 873 . The income of the year up to the 5 th of January was £ 52 , 933 , 693 . Tlie expenditure , exclusive of the Kaffir war , and some other items , had been £ 52 , 563 , 310 , the difference being about £ 370 , 000 , which remained as a balance of income 0 A cr expenditure . He calculated that next yoar he would lose on corn about £ 780 , 000 . There was then the sum of £ 580 , 000 A \ 'hich he could not calculate upon again as appropriations in aid , whilst he had last year received £ 80 , 000 of China moneya sum Avhich he could not reckon upon receiving for the coming year . He would then lose upon the whole about £ 1 , 360 , 000 . But , as he had already shOAvn , the reductions Avhich would be proposed would amount , as compared with their
revised estimates of last year , to £ 1 , 447 , 353 . The reductions cotncmplatcd , therefore , would exceed the loss ofthe revenue on which they might calculate for the coming year , so that there Avas eA'cry reason to believe that the expenditure Avould be within the income of next year , although tho loss of income would approximate to a million and a half . Having shown that it Avould not be Aviso to make at once thc large reductions proposed hy Mr . Cobden , and that the government had not been unmindful of its duty in connexion with the question of retrenchment , he expressed a hope that the House would give a decided expression of opinion against such sweeping reductions as were contemplated by the amendment . Mr . J * O'Connell pointed out the bearing which
the condition of Ireland had upon this question , declaring that if that country was ruled justly and wisely with aproper attention to her Avants , £ 800 , 000 a-year might be saved . Sir De Lacy Evans cleared the officers of the army from the imputations thrown upon them by the Financial Reform Association . Mr . Hume repeated that the fault of these aggravated establishments rested with that House , and that they had been kept up by aristoeratical influence . He Avas sorry to hear from the Chancellor of ( he Exchequer that the greatest efforts of the go-A-ernment could only bring the expenditure within the revenue . The people of this country would not be satisfied with this—thoy would require a " reduction of their burdens . Mr . Cobden , he contended ,
had made out a clear case , and had had no answer to his question , why the successive additions made to the different branches ofthe expenditure should be still maintained . Mr . Hermes said , the question really was whether the House was prepared now to reduce the expenditure by £ 10 , 000 , 000 . The Chancellor of the Exchequer had commended the temperate speech of Mr . Cobden , who had said the same things there as he had done elsewhere , but not in the same language . He ( Mr . Herries ) admitted that the tone ofthe hon . gentleman was extremely quiet—that it was a tone such as suited the atmosphere of that House ; but he could not forget that his statements wero but repetitions of what had been ringing in their ears for six months past from Liverpool and
Manchester , and every other scene of ag itation . ( Protectionist cheers . ) In thoso places the same things had been said , but not in the same language . Different , indeed , Avas the language which the hon . « ontleman used in that House and which he was reported to have used elsewhere . In that House they heard no diatribes against the aristocracy—no insinuations that the army was intended to amuse youno- men of famil y and fasliion with fine clothes , - ~ no ° low insinuat ions of that nature ; but , if tlie hon crentleman were to speak two languages—if he were to be violent in one place and decovovis m another better be violent in that House and decorous whero inflammatory language mi g ht produce ill effects . ( Loud Protectionist cheers , echoed from the Ministerial benches . ) He could not but think that the conduct of to * govenuneat last session had
M0xday, Pebkcary 26. House Of Lords. — H...
?? ont £ ; r St 0 dh 'l ' omotin ? ^ spirit of agi-S 2 Z W of which they now felt . If IE k ^ been debated as they ought to withdSv , "f yc " that Itouso - Md to" * not been ment of T T ^ Weratioa hy the r . ppointentcitl ' i , ™ " 1 - ° ' ; vhicU wnm ttec refused to b he 11 L . i lo l r f ? 1 wou , d lir , Vc heen afforded t s ^^^^ ^' s zj ^ ' ^ f ^ sts z as , , y ^ irs . e ^ n , ^ r
mgly ill supported . They had all hea 5 £ f K hZ ' o ? - fVT t 0 , ' ° ^«» t ^ tht vhen th ? fthen ,. ° f 0 UgI ! How I , ad j t fcen fo . ght ? ( Cheers and counter cheers . ) Why , the hon " en eman was perfectly abandoned , ap' ^ SitH i » ? i nh 5 Cnj 3 ' ( Ch 00 rs and il , on ieal laughter . ' ) Why nobod rose to second him . ( Kenowed laughter . ) Fvehni Sht ' ° n S * , ™ the Chancellor ° of the Exchequer had certainly manfully resisted thomos sted ithi 5 W d lt m 01 ' ° ™> ly- * 8 u- he had rcfit ¦ M „ nV *& ' sometllin & - The hon . mcniber Wl Zf ? ° . ' ? taCkl ° t 0 tr ' ° lnotion a * : bo nau not stood by the motion . He ( Mr . Herries ) wa . fi » reduction if you could make it ; ho was quite ready to go with tho hon . member for ti , o
precautions , but he could not believe that the hon . ufr , ! ,. caiTOt in m » kmg this motion . ( Hear , ™ ' [ "e did not think that the hon . member for motion St RidmS anticiD , lted an . v success from this ii P" ? 0 DDE !' - —Wait ; wait a little . „ f v !" ' i ? , ' ES addressed himself to the arguments ? L ™ C . ° bd ' He showcd now » allv advantageous to this country was a comparison fairly mado between its expenditure and that of France ma the effect which agitation in the latter country had exerted upon its finances . Ho tlion adverted to an element in tho question Avhich had been onl y superficially noticed
namely , the enormous sum of taxation repealed or reduced , whilst the amount of rcA'cnue remained nearly the same as before . He was as earnest an advocate as any for reduction of expenditure where practicable , but he deprecated any attack upon a particular item , and any concession to agitation from without . Forei gn affairs required the greatest caution , - rebellion was not extinct in Ireland , and tho House should hesitate before it recorded a vote that might hamper tho defence of the country Mr . M . Omsox thought that it could not be very consolatory to tho agriculturists to find their financial leader hold out to them such slender hopes of a reduction of expenditure , for it was solely upon a reduction of expenditure that must he "rounded
whatever was proposed in the nature of relief to the tenant farmers . The ri ght hon . gentleman then proceeded to enforce at considerable length the views expressed hy Mr . Cobden , fortifying them bv numerous illustrations of his own . ¦ Mr . Cobden hail precedent and experience in favour of his proposition , and , as the gOA'Crnment had conceded a reduction in the whole of £ 2 ,-500 , 000 , he had little doubt that £ 10 , 000 , 000 might be saved in our expenditure . The professional evidence to the amount of naval and military forces requisite for the wants of the country Avas conflicting ; but when public opinion bore upon the question , the government , whether
wing- or 'loi-y , reduced the expenditure , and as soon as that opinion ceased to act , it increased it . Our naval armament Avas kept up in some parts , not for use , but for parade ; it was time enough to send out squadrons when we were threatened Avith an attack . Much was said of foreign establishments , but we did not regulate ours thereby ; in the French navy there were 1 ) 31 officers , in ours , 3 , 931 i . avo had 150 admirals , the united States not one . Mr . Cobden did not ask an immediate reduction , but that the House would declare that the present expendiditure was excessive , and should be reduced with all practicable speed .
Mr . . UnQUKAnr opposed Mr . Cobden ' s motion , and Mi - . M'GnKOon supported it , advocating not only retrenchment , but a modification of the system of taxation . Mr . Axstev concurred Avith Mr . Herries that the effect of the resolution was to call upon the House to make an immediate reduction of £ 10 , 000 , 000 in the expenditure , and he charged Mr . Cobden with swelling the majority of Lord Palmerston , whose foreign policy had created much of the increase of expenditure of Avhich he now complained . He denied that the reduction demanded was safe or probable , and called upon every Avell-Avishcr of his country to oppose the resolution . Colonel SiHTiionr had no reliance in tho assertion or the conduct of either the hon . member for the
West Riding , who brought forward the motion , or of his ri g ht hon . relative ( the Chancellor ofthe Exchequer ) , Avho opposed it . He looked upon , the motion as a snake in tho grass , but he Avas determined it should not bite him . ( A laugh , ) Having no confidence either in the motion or the opposition to it , he should abstain altogether from voting , and leave the House . The hon . and gallant member , suiting tho action to tho word , immediatel y withdrew amid mingled laughing and cheering . Loud calls for tho division from both sides of tho house followed the hon . and gallant member ' s exit , and , ss no one offered to rise , strangers were ordered to withdraw , hut before the galleries wove cleared
Mr . BnioiiT rose and addressed himself to the refutation of the fallacies with which ho thought the speech of Mr . Herries replete . The rhrht hon . gentleman had quite misapprehended Mr . Cobden ' s object in instituting a comparison between the taxation of England and France . Mi - . Herries had attempted to show that democratic governments were prone to ^ extravagance , and cited the case of France in support of his proposition . He had also alluded to America , as aftoruW similar proof . A more unfortunate allusion could not have been made , as it appeared from Mr . Mackay ' s Western World , a Avork recently published , that expenditure in America was kept at a low ebb . And so with taxation , it
appearing from the same Avork that tho whole taxation of the people of JNew York ( one of the most highlytaxed States ) was less per head for all purposes than our taxation per head lor the support of our military establishments alone . Tho hon . gentleman then addressed himself to the general question , urging upon the House the absolute necessity which existed for a speedy and a material reduction of our expenditure , and a substantial diminution of our taxation . He particularl y pressed this upon the agricultural members , reminding them that it was indispensable to a reduction of tho burdens which weighed upon the farmers , that large reductions should be made in our expenditure .
Mr . Dkummoxo was somewhat suspicious of the new friends to the farmer , A \ iio had suddenl y started up behind the Treasury bench . lie would advise the farmers , hoAvcver , not to trust tlieir enemies even when they came with gifts . Our armaments should only be reduced with reference to tho situation of this country and that of foreign states ; but that consideration av . is entirely lost sight of by those Avho supported the amendment . The House then diveded , and the numbers were—For the amendment ( Mr . Cobden ' s resolution ) ... ... ... ... 78 Against it ... ... ... ... 275 Majority against ... ... 197 Tlie amendment being rejected , tho House Avent into committee of supply _ pro forma , the committee to sit aeain on Friday .
The ltolief of Distress ( Ireland ) Bill then went through committee . Tlic other business was then disposed of , and the House adjourned at one o clock . * TUESDAY , February 27 . HOUSE OF LORDS . —The Irish Poor Laav . — Lord Stanley , Avith the vIcav of being in order , m attacking the course Avhich the government ; had pursued with respect to the committees of either House on the subject of the Irish Poor Laws , moved that a message be sent to the Commons requesting a copy of the first report of tlie committee of that House on that subject . _ The noble lord proceeded to indicate the course which had been taken in the House of Lords : —The committee having been
appointed , on the motion of the noble Marquis the Lord President , that noble lord laid certain resolutions before the committee , but declined to pledge himself as to the measures on which the government had come to a positive conclusion , and Avhich related to various subjects in connexion Avith the Irish Poor L . iav on Avhich it was fitting that information should be received . This was a proper course , no doubt , but he was surprised to learn that in the other House of Parliament a A ery different course had heen pursued . There it appeared the First Lord of tlie Treasury had declared that tho resolutions were submitted to the government , that they adopted them , and if the committee did not affirm them the noble lord said they Avould be submitted to parliament on the responsibility , of the government alone . Tho next step was a motion made in
the committee by members not connected with government , that upon the resolutions so submitted evidence should be taken ; this proposition was hoAvcver negatived by the members of tho government , the First Lord ofthe Treasury declaring that her Majesty ' s government would permit no investigation to take place . There was an inconsistency m the course pursued by different members of tho government , which it Avas impossible to reconcile ! Avith the respect due to either House of Parliament , to the noble Marquis , or to the general course of the administration ot the . country . After referring to the state of Ireland , and of Irish landlords , as affected by the operatioa of the present poor laws , the noble lord concluded b y expressing his hope that the government would reconsider their determination of separating tho quasium of a rate in aid , from tho remaii « fef of tiie- question , or that the proposition would- a « t be jvmed W ia tho H < w » s
M0xday, Pebkcary 26. House Of Lords. — H...
of Commons , until tlieir lordshi ps , from tho evidence I to he given before their committee , had satisfied themselves whether it ought to be considered alone or not . The . Marquis o Laxdsdowxe , after describing at some length the course lie had taken in reference to this subject , and referring to the proceedings before the committee of the Commons , said : —It appeared to him that the course taken by the latter committee , however anxious they mig ht bo to obtain complete information , arose from the conviction of immediate assistance being necessary to be afforded to the Irish people to continue for the next few months . Ho certainly had no hesitation in saying that he wished no separation had taken place between the first resolution and those which immediately followed , because if the question of a temporary rate
in aid was to be entertained by parliament , he thought it ought to be in connexion Avitli tlie other question of establishing a maximum of poor-rate in all the counties of Ireland , and no consideration on earth should induce him to assent to a measure tho effect of Avhieli should be to render the rate in aid permanent . Upon the whole , he thought it would bo found that there existed an apparent rather than a real discrepancy between tho course pursued bv the two committees . Lord BnoucHAM expressed his pleasure at hearing the reluctance with which tho noble marquis had given his assent to a rate , nnd he hoped the recent £ 50 , 000 grant would be the last made to Ireland . The royal assent was given bv commission to the Inland Revenue and the Habeas " Corpus Suspension ( Ireland ) bills , and their lordshi ps adjourned .
TUESDAY , Fkuruary 28 . HOUSE OF COMMOXS . —The business was of a very miscellaneous character , consistiii" chiefly of what the French call " interpellations . " A number of questions were put and answered on almost every variety of subject . Among other topics wore : — The Mutilatiox op Despatches . —Mr . Baiuje begged to express a hope that the despatches about to be sent to the committee upstairs , relative to the affairs of Ceylon and British Guiana , would not he mutilated in the way in which former documents of a similar kind had been . ( Cries of " Oh , oh ' . " and " Question ! " ) The question was—were the despatches likely to be mutilated ? ( RencAved cries ot "Oh , oh ! " ) Ho held a despatch in his hand which contained about eleven lines , and from it there appeared to havo been something extracted . Mr . Hawks . —AVhat is your question ?
Mr . BilUIE . —Whether they will be presented to the committee Avithout mutilation . Mr . Hawks ( warmly ) . —I think the question is a most unusual one to ask . ( Hear . ) It is calculated to excite a prejudice , which I am happy to have this opportunity of entirely repudiating . I have seen it stated more than once , by parties whom the hon . member may know , that there havo been instances in Avhich despatches were mutilated bv my noble friend the Secretary forthe Colonies , for some purposes of concealment . Sir , it is utterly unfounded— altogether unfounded — that that has ever boon done ' . ( Cheers . ) It will be in the recollection of the House that certain despatches avcvc moved for by the late Lord George Bontinck , and that an explanation was given by ma at the time . The despatches in question related to SOulO apprehended disturbances in the island of Jamaica , in consequence of the monopolists there having been
disappointed at the passing ofthe Sugar Bill in England . The language used was , that several of the plantation proprietors ayovo going to transfer their allegiance to the United States . The despatches contained a statement relative to tho threatened disturbances ; they referred to particular individuals by name . They embodied depositions which had not been taken before the magistrates , and also some unproved charges ; and those parts which had refernece to charges of that nature against individuals were struck out , a course which I am perfectly prepared to take again if necessary . ( Hear , hear . ) I think I have met the charge ofthe lion , gentleman , and now I beg to tell him that when the committee meets there will not be the slightest objection to lay before them tho whole of the despatches received , not for the use of the House or the public , but in order to show them that there is nothing to justify the term " mutilation , " which has been used . Whatever was withhold on a
former occasion was extracted simply with a view to the just protection of private character ; and my noble friend , the Secretary for the Colonics , would have been unworthy the position he holds had he scrupled to act as he did . ( Hear , hoar . ) Mr . Baii . me . —Will you lay the despatches before tlie House ? Mr . Hawks . —Certainly not . I will lay them before the committee , but not before the House and the public . Mr . Haillik . —You must recollect that tho committee does not sit on the affairs of Jamaica , but on thoso of Ceylon . Mr . Hawks . —I will not consent to lay them before the House and the public . Mr . Osboiine . —Is the committee to be a secret one ? Mr . Hawks . —Certainl y not , so far as I Know . ( Hear , hear . )
Mr . Hume . —I thought they Avere to sit on the affairs of the colonies generally . ( Loud cries of "So . no . " ) Mr . Eaii . uk . —They arc limited to those of Ceylon . Co . nmui- at California . —Mr . Wvr . n inquired , amidst general laughter , whether- it was tho intention of Tier Majesty ' s Ministers to appoint a consul at San Francisco or at any of the ports of California ? Lord P . u . meksto . v replied that this was a question which had not now been put to him for the first time . He had had it put to him privately before , by some who were interested on behalf of others , and some who were interested in their own prospects . ( Laughter . ) But he had no intention of appointing any consul at present , because , as every hon . member must see , there was no form of government that ho knew of established in California
with whom a consul could communicate . He might , to be sure , communicate Avith the gold-finders . ( Loud laughter . ) The Iiusu Dkuate . —Mr . J . O'CoxxEixsuid that two important objects could bo attained—that of having only one debate on Irish affairs , and enabling hon . members to express their vievrs fully with regard to the sister country—if the noble lord at the head of the government Avould fix Thursday , Friday , or Monday for the bringing forward of his motion relative to the first report on Irish Poor Luavs , Lord J . IHssem replied that he was anxioss to introduce the motion on Thursday , but that three other motions , of which notice had been given by the hon . member for Bath ( Lord Ashley ) , the hon . member for Cork ( Mr . Pagan ) , and the hon . member for Nottingham ( Mr . F . O' Coxxon ) , stood in the way . At the suggestion of Mr . Roche ,
Mr . Faoax and air . O'Connor consented to Avithdraw their notices of motion for Thursday in order that the noble lord might have precedence . Ceylox axd British Guiaxa . —Mr . Baii . me nominated the following as members of the select committee on arievanccs in the colonies of Ceylon and British Guiana : —Mr . Hume , Sir J . Walmsley , Sir R . Peel , Sir J . Hogg , Mr . Gladstone , Mr . Disraeli , Mr . C . Villicrs , Mr . Hawes , Mr . Adderley , Mr . Wilson , Mr . S . Wortley , Lord Hotham , Mr . Baillie , Mr . M'Cullagh , and Major Blackall . —Agreed to . Tho House adjourned at half-past seven o ' clock . WEDNESDAY " , Fsimi-Aitv . 25 . HOUSE OF COMMONS . —The Insolvent Membkiis Hill was referred to a select committee upstairs .
Puhlic Roads Bill . —Mr . C . Lewis then moved the second reading ofthe Public Roads Bill . Objections had been taken to tho provisions of the bill in the form in which it had been introduced . It had been his endeavour , in the interval , to meet these objections , as far as possible , consistently with the objects of the measure . One of tho chief objections then urged against it was , that it made the county rate liable for the expense of keeping up the roads in each county . He endeavoured to meet this b y alterations in ' the bill , Avhich still left the county rate ultimately liable in case of a deficiency of the tolls , which would constitute tho security of the bondholders—a deficiency which ho did not anticipate . There Avere other alterations introduced into the bill , -which , however , need not here be more particularly referred to .
Mr . W . Miles ' regarded the bill , in its modified shanf , as an improvement upon tho measure "which had heen originally introduced . It was , however , so altered as to be virtually a new bill , and as the alterations had not been printed , and the matter was one whieh required great consideration , he suggested the propriety of postponing the second readme for a fortnight , the bill , as modified , to be immediately printed , and put into the hands of members , so that they would have ample time to consider it before coming to its discussion . - A Ion" and desultory discussion hereupon ensued , which fasted for upwards of two hours , and in which s & mo doxens of members took part . With one or two exceptions they all agreed as to the pronrietv of nutting the public roads of the kingdom
under an improved system of management , but differed widely from each other in tho interpretation which they put upon the provisions of tho bill as altered Some had a few of their objections removed , * others nearly all which they had entertained to the original bill , but none wero perfectly satisfied whilst all offered suggestions fontsfurthor im provement . The majority Avho spoko were , in favour of postponement , some suggesting tho withdraAval of the bill , and its re-introduotion in its modified shape , with somo further improvements , as an cntivcly new bill . Sir George Grey objected to both propositions , his object in so doing being to facilitate the progress of the measure . It would bo printed , after naving passed tho second reading and ample time would be given to consider its provisions before , Ua committal , To this course
M0xday, Pebkcary 26. House Of Lords. — H...
however , the majority ofthe lfou . se seemed averse , and the Government ' finding that many members , ivlio were in fa vow , , not on ' lvof the principle , but also ot many of t ! : e provisions of the hill , would vote against the second reading , if then pressed , ultimatel y withdrew it . Mr . C . Lewis , iu withdrawing the bill , observed that he did so on the understanding that it would be re-iutroduccd immediately . The bill was then withdrawn , and the hon . gentleman thereupon moved tor leave to introduce a bill with a similar object to that ofthe measure withdrawn . Leave given .
Offexckr ( Inv . LANr . ) Bill . —Sir II . W . IUuuon then moved the second reading of the Offences ( Ireland ) Bill . Its principal object was to prevent offenders arrested for offences ot * a trivial character from being confined in the county gaols , and there detained for a long time before trial . Justice would thus be done to the accused , and the counties would be saved much expense . The bill contained other provisions , conferring ( in certain cases ) certain powers upon justices , constables , and other persons . He could assure the House tliat ho had had ablo loa . ll assistance in drawing up the bill , and hoped that no objection would be offered to the second reading . In framing the bill , the Dublin Police Act had been closely kept in view .
Mr . DuuMMOxn drew tho attention of the House to the scope and provisions of the bill , which would meet , if persisted in , with his most strenuous opposition . It was seldom that acts of Parliament were pleasant rending , but this was one of the <« funniest " productions that had ever eoino under his notice , lie then proceeded to make a most amusing analysis of the bill , which , in his opinion , mig ht be well entitled a bill to " enable every Irishman to arrest another Irishman . " ( Laughter on all sides . ) So arbitrary were its provisions , and so trivial were the offences ' which it made penal , that , under it , any constable or any other person could , with or without warrant , arrest any ono who was found feloniously plucking a leaf of sweetbriar . There was one clause in the bill to which he was sure that
Englishmen if it were likely to pass , ayouuI give their cordial assent , and that Avas the clause which limited its operation to Ireland . ( Laughter . ) The interpretation clause was in keeping with the rest of the bill , enacting as it did that "' the male should include the female . " ( Great laughter . ) In his opinion the bill instructively illustrated the fitness of Irishmen for the coveted work of domestic legislation . ( Hear , hear ; and laughter . ) Mr . E . B . Roche congratulated tho hon . baronet on having at last introduced something oven worse than the Habeas Corpus Bill . A more ridiculous or preposterous measure had never been submitted to the House , It empowered anybody in Ireland to take up anybody else , fordoing anything or nothing . ( Laughter . ) lie protested onlu ' s own " behalf , and on ttiiat of the Irish mcmbci s with whom he
srenerally acted , against its being supposed that they were in the slightest degree , or in any Avay whatever , connected Avith so arbitrary aud absurd a measure . ( Laughter . ) Colonel Duxsk observed , that he found himself peculiarl y situated with regard to the bill , seeing that his name was on tho back of it . ( Laughter . ) Some legislation on tho subject was absolutely necesssary . He had not read the bill , nor was he aAvavo of the peculiar character of its provisions until Mr . Drummond had explained them . ( Laughter renewed ) . Now that it had been analysed , he saw that it was perfectly impossible that , as it stood , it could receive the assent ofthe House , He , at least , could not give it his support . ( Laughter ) .
Mr . Stakeord must remark that Irish members on liis side of tho house had had nothing to do with this bill . ( Laughter , ) They understoodlit was part ofthe remedial and comprehensive policy of lion , gentlemen opposite , but it appeared uoav that it was tho work of the hon . baronet alone . ( Laughter . ) Sir G . GitKv said that repudiation seemed to bo the order of the day . ( A laugh . ) He wished to state on the part of the government that they could not support the bill in its present form . The hon . baronet said tho object of it was to clear the gaols of Ireland , and one mode which he had proposed for doing so was to take an indefinite number of petty offences and punish them by fines without anyjowor of enforcing the payment of those fines by moans of imprisonment . ( A laugh . ) He found
that a beggar Avas to be liable to a fine of 40 s . ( Great laughter . ) How could that be enforced except by imprisonment ? Ho was unwilling to add to the unfavourable comments made on the bill by members from the hon . baronet ' s own country , and lie would advise him to communicate freely with hon . members from Ireland and certainly with tho hon . gentleman whose name was put on the back of the bill . ( A laugh . ) Mr . Napikii also commented on the various clauses oftlic bill . By clause three , a penalty of 40 s . aviis enacted against every person who " set on or urged any dog or other animal to attack , worry , or put in fear , any person , horse , or other animal" ( great laughter , )—so that that " other animal" might bo a two-lesKcu . or a four-legged donkey . ( Laughter . )
Mr . A . llKitiiEitT hoped the people of Ireland Avould ponder well on this Draconic code for regulating their conduct , brought in b y the champion of the moral force Repealers of Watcrford . ( Hear . ) Mr . J . O ' G ' o . v . nell , on the part of the moral force Repealers of Ireland , repudiated the hon , baronet . ( Great laughter . ) The hon . baronet said this bill was founded on the Dublin Police Act , which had never been complained of . Hut he ( Mr . O'Council ) could state that that act Avas most arbitrary ; but , irerc it not so , it was only applicable to a large metropolis , Avhere public opinion prevented an improper use of if . He could iiotthink that the provisions of this bill had emanated from Mr . Berwick , or that he had ever seen it .
Sir W . Baiwox pledged his reputation —( great laughter )—in direct contradiction to the statement of the lion , member for Limerick as to the party who drew up this bill . He ( Sir W . Barron ) did not produce this bill or draw up one line of it . He suggested—( great laughter)—not a single line of it . It was presented to him as suggestions from three assistant-barristers in Ireland —( laughter )—and Mr . Berwick was . the person who drew up the details of the bill emphatically as printed . ( Laughter . ) Mr . Berwick was one of tlic most eminent—( Great laughter . ) Really he ( Sir W . Barron ) had no personal interest in the matter . ( Laughter . ) He was merely requested to bring in the bill , and he believed that there was not one of its enactments which was
not punishable in England or in Dublin under the Police Act , or in Ireland ( a laugh ) , but by a more circuitous route . ( Laughter . ) The hon . baronet , iiftor defending the provisions of thu bill , said that the hon . member for Kerry had referred to him personally . Ho would not retort , but ho regretted that the hon . member should have thought it necessary to make a personal attack on one hon . member for a bill of this kind , with which he had no personal interest . He had boon , as hon . gentlemen ought to have known , most bitterly abused personally by tho moral force Repealers of Ireland ; they had g iven him a severely-contested election , and he believed there was no man , in or out of Ireland , more thoroug hly hated by them . ( Great laughter . ) The hon . baronet concluded by saying he should not press the bill . false
Mr . A . Hkkbkkt said he had been under a impression , and was happy at once to retract w . iat he had stated . ( Hear , hear . ) , , t t Sir W . Bahhox said the hon . gentleman s statement was perfectly satisfactory . Mr . Reyxolds said that as this bill had been prepared by throe assistant-barristers , and revised by a baronet , he thought the hon . baronet had been very ill treated . If he ( Mr . Reynolds ) could recommend its adoption at all , it would be that with such a bill they mig ht repeal all the coercion acts of Ireland together . ( A laugh . ) The hon . baronet said ho was hated by the moral force Repealers . He ( Mr . Reynolds ) could assure the lion , baronet that he bore him no hatred—( a laugh ) ;—but , if this bill wore a sample of his legislative ability , he made him a present of it . It Avas quite possible to laugh at , without hating a man . After some further conversation , the bill was withdrawn and the curtain dropped on a , very laughable scene . '
Out-Door Paltkus Bill . —On the question that the order of the day bo read for the House resolving itself into a committee on this bill , Sir II . Willouohby said that the bill which they were then about to consider in committee had only b . eii delivered on the 27 th of February , and read a second time at half-past twelve o ' clock in the morning . It would of course be in the recollection of the House that very recently the lives of nearly 200 children had been lost in an asylum kept by a person of the name of Drouet ; everything relating to this subject had therefore become a matter of the hig hest importance ; upon that ground , then , he did not hesitate to call the attention of the House to the circumstance that great doubts were entertained as to whether the provisions of the bill would meet tho evils and the difficulties of tho case . He hoped , therefore , that the rig ht hon . gentleman opposite would state his views and intentions on the subject .
In the first place , he should himself , however , observe , that ho saw no reason why the poor should bo farmed out of tho workhouses ; ho saw no reason why , whether they were of age or under age , they should bo let out to any one to make a profit of them . Every member of that House would , he felt assured , boar him out in the assertion Avhen he stated , that one great object of tho Poor Law Amendment Bill was that all paupers should be placed Avithin tho Avorkhouso ; and it especially provided , that if , in any case paupers happened to be sent out of the workhouse , tho Poor Liav Commissioners should have power to make regulations for their protection and government ; but the difficulty lay m making such rules obligatory . It was much to be regretted that there existed no effective system ol inspection , and to that he more particularly begged to call the attention of tho right hon . gentleman opposite , tho chief of the Poor Law Commission Having made these few observations he had only further to say . that ho should bo glad to hear what
-
-
Citation
-
Northern Star (1837-1852), March 3, 1849, page 7, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/ns2_03031849/page/7/
-