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Mabch3 ' 1849 - the NORTHE R STAR. r~--....
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Imperial ^atftamettt r~--,.._.;-V /»«__»-
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MOXDAY, February 2G. HOUSE OF LORDS. — H...
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Mabch3 ' 1849 - The Northe R Star. R~--....
Mabch 3 ' 1849 - the NORTHE _R STAR . I ~ ' * ¦ - _** _" * _- * _- * _- * _- _**** _- _**** _- _* _- _**»» - _¦»¦¦ _m——^___ -m __————*—— •*¦
Imperial ^Atftamettt R~--,.._.;-V /»«__»-
Imperial _^ atftamettt r _~ --,.. _ . _; -V _/»«__» -
Moxday, February 2g. House Of Lords. — H...
MOXDAY , February 2 G . HOUSE OF LORDS . — Habeas Cokpcs Act grsPEXSiox Bill . —The Marquis of Laxsdowxe jnoved the third reading of this biU . Lord Brotghaji ( who must have some one to abuse for the time being ) would take that opportunity of saying tbat he had the other night understated the misconduct of a juryman on the trial of puny in Dublin—a person called Burke . He had since learnt that npon going into the jury-box this man stated that no consideration upon earth should induce him to convict the prisoner ; and when the jury were discharged , because they could not agree on ' their verdict , this man mounted a car ,
harr . _ui'Tied the mob , huzzaed , and went to his inn in -triumph . Nothing could be more disgusting in a juror , or , in fact , in any christian man , than to have been <* uilty of such corrupt and flagitious conduct . He wished it to be understood that a juror was not to be protected , from the fact of his being a juror , from any outrages which , he might commit . In the whole of his experience he had never seen a court worse treated throughout the whole proceedings than were the learned and reverend judges by whom Mr . Duffy was tried , by the counsel engaged for the defence . " Their object seemed to be to quarrel with the court , in order that they might throw up their
brief , and say to the people out of doors , " We can get no justice . " ( Hear , hear . ) The conduct ofthe court , however , had been most forbearing-7-the reverend judges had behaved with great dignity , tempered with perfect suavity towards the persons from whom they had received such insults . Lord Campbell concurred in these sentiments . The bill was then read a third time and passed . The Mahbiaoes _jujd Recistratios of Births ( Scotland ) Bills passed through committee . HOUSE OF COMMONS . —English Wohksces ix France . —In reply to a question from Mr . B . Cociiraxb ,
Lord J . Russell stated that his noble friend Lord Palmerston had received a satisfactory assurance from the French government that they were ready to pay tho sums deposited in the French savings banks , by the British workmen who were compelled to leave France on the breaking out of tbe revolu tion last year , as soon as it was ascertained who were the parties who had the claims . Church Jobbery . —Mr . Hobsmax , after _referring at considerable length to the circumstances attending the rectory of Bishopwearmouth , and with the Tiew of giving Lord J . Russell a further opportunity of explanation , inasmuch as it was now _nnderstood Ms former one was neither satisfactory nor correct , begged to ask whether in any of the points referred to in the noble lord ' s former answers as to the
gross incomes of the rectory , the ft _* tiire income of the incumbent , the application of the surplus re-Tenue _, or the feeling of the parishioners as represented by the ancient vestry , there was anything requiring correction . Lord J . Russell replied , that on the third point there had certainly been an error , not as the hon . gentleman supposed in the statement sent by the Bishop of Durham , but in his ( Lord J . RusseU ' reading ofit The Bishop of Durham stated that the wayleaves and coal rents would be placed in the hands of trustees for the benefit of the chapelrie 3 amounting to £ 1 , 600 a year , and on the hon . member ' s asking whether that sum would be paid to the incumbents of the other chapelries , his reply was , concluding that that was the contemplated arrangement , in the affirmative . In that inference , however , it appeared he had heen mistaken .
Mr . Horsiia _* - * asked whether , in the noble lord ' s opinion , the bishop had any authority to divert any portion ofthe temporalities provided by law to the incumbent to any other purpose ? Lord J . Russell did not consider thc bishop would have any authority to divert the revenues settled by law as the income ofthe living , whether arising from rents or other sources , and if that had beea done in any case he imagined there would be a legal remedy . Financial Reform . —Mr . Cobdex on the question of going into committee of supply , rose tn interpose the following resolution , by way of amendment : — " That thc net expenditure of the government for the year , 1835 , ( parliamentary paperNo . 260 , 1847 ) ,
amounted to £ 44 , 422 , 000 ; that the net expenditure of the vear ended January 5 , 1 S 49 ( parliamentary paper / No . 1 , 1349 ) , amounted to £ 54 , 185 , 000 ; the increase of nearly ten millions having been caused principally by successive augmentations of our warlike establishments , and outlays for defensive armaments : that no foreign danger , or necessary C 03 tof the civil government , nor indispensable disbursement for the services in onr dependencies abroad , warrant the continuance of this increase of expenditure : that the taxes required , to meet the present expenditure impede the operations of agriculture and manufactures , and diminish the funds for the employment of labour in all branches of productive industry , therebv increasing pauperism and
crime , and adding grievously to the local and general burdens of the people : * that to diminish these evils , it is expedient that this House take _steps to reduce the annual expenditure , with all practicable speed , to an amount which , within the last fourteen years , has proved to be sufficient for the mainte-, nance of the security , honour , and dignity ofthe nation . " Tho hon . gentleman commenced the speech with whieh he prefaced these resolutions , by briefly explaining the objects which he had in view in thus submitting them to the House . He was of opinion that the general question of our financial position should precede the discussion of the estimates in detail . He did not wish the House to think that he entertained thc idea that what he
proposed to do could be done instanter ; all that he then sought being that the House should at once express its opinion as to the desirableness bf taking some steps iri ihe direction of reduction io as great an extent as possible . He contrasted the expenditure of France and England : —Now , sir , on this subject we can take a very much more severe view of our neighbours' affairs than we can of our own . We have had thc finances ofthe French government Tery much criticised and remarked upon in this country of late . 2 f ow _, the French accounts are kept in a very different , and I think superior way from ours , in thc French accounts you have the gross sums put down on the debit and credit sides . For instance , the cost of collection , all the drawbacks ,
and everything which in this country is pnt down as charges of collection of revenue , you have put down ia the gross revenue of accounts in France . Besides , in France you have a great number of items charged that we put down here as local expenditure . For instance , they have a large item for the religious instruction of the people ; they have items for roads and bridges , the whole of their education , and ateliers nationaux "Wc have heard a great deal of their cost of workshops , forgetting that we have our ateliers nationaux in every workhouse in England . ( Hear , hear . ) I will just read to the House what is the amount of expenditure in England for public objects of the same kind as are inserted in the French budget .
Our imperial expenditure is - £ -54 , 000 , 000 ; and here I beg to say that I will only give the figures in round numbers , omitting the hundreds and thousands , and that in every case I will engage to be nnder the real amounts . ( Hear . ) Our imperial expenditure , then , is , £ 54 , 000 , 000 , Our cost of collection and other amounts not paid into the exchequer is £ 7 , 000 , 000 . Our expenditure for the relief of the poor in the United Kingdom is £ 8 , 000 , 000 . Our county rates I put down at £ 1 , 000 , 000 ; OUl _liiihwav rates are £ 1 , 000 , 000 ; religion , £ 6 , 000 , 000 —making a gros 3 total altogether ' of £ 77 , 000 , 000 . Now , wenave heard it stated in this country that the French government , in the year of the revolutionand when they were in an exceptional state ,
, had expended £ 72 , 000 , 000 . In this country we expended £ 77 , 000 , 000 for similar objects . _Xaymore , I have left ont onr expense for hospitals and education , though I believe that if every item was included , and a fair comparison made , we should have an expenditure of £ 80 , 000 , 000 in England a <* ainst £ 72 , 000 , 000 in France , for a population of 25 , 000 , 000 against a population of 36 , 000 , 000 . ( Hear , hear . ) Sow , sir , that I think is calculated to make us enter on the consideration of this question in a mode calculated , if possible , to diminish this enormous amount of expenditure ; and in cringing forward these local charges , I must say that we have lost sight , a great deal too much , of thc increase of late years which has taken place in
the local taxation of this conntry —( hear , hear)—for this country differs from every other in this respect , that we have four or five different local and legislative bodies taxing the people in different ways for a variety of objects . If we look at the increase in our local expenditure , we shaU see something de-Se _** rin < - of our serious and solemn attention . I will take the amount for the relief and maintenance of the poor in the United Kingdom . In the year 1837 that amount was £ 4 , 300 , 000 ; bv the latest accounts it was 8 , 341 , 000 ; and I take 1837 as the first Starting point , because , in tbat year , the new Poor law was brought into full operation in this country , and we had effected a considerable reduction in the expenditure for the relief of the poor , and thought that the newlaw would have prevented any increase . "Why in England alone , since that time the increase renei oi tne
lias been fifty percent , for tne poor . ( Hear hear . ) In county rates it has been the same . Tor the year-1835 the county rates amounted to £ 671 , 000 . For the year ending Michaelmas 1847 they were £ 1 , 266 , 000—nearly double again for * » -nrtyrate _^ 3 _mce iS 35 . ( Hear . ) _^ nd I mnst saj- that ithinkiocal charges of this kind form a much truer index ofthe state of the country than the imperial taxation , for bearin niind that these items ot poor rates and countv rates are forthe support of pauperism , the construction and maintenance of gaols , and other objects of that kind , m fact , yonr local ! taxation is a kind of barometer , showing the social state ofthe conntry ; and I must say that the pro-| gW 33 Of these rates for the last fourteen or fifteen Hears has been ofa most discouraging and _alarrninff ikind . ( Hear , hear . ) And there is another yiew of ithe question . You cannot _-stottinish , these local
Moxday, February 2g. House Of Lords. — H...
rates , you CanJJOt keep them down , or prercii _* their increase , by any means you may resort to in the localities themselves . It * is my firm belief that the progress of extravagance in your imperial legislature is the cause ofthe growth of pauperism and crime in your several localities , and that to amend and check this you must apply the remedy in this House by general legislation . ( Hear , hear . ) The hon . gentleman then justified himself by precedent for reverting to the standard of expenditure afforded by the year 1 S 35 . He ihen compared the expenditure of 1835 with that of last year . The increase during the interval had been about ten milhons Looking at the items of our expenditure , he confessed that there was but one in connexion with .
which any very great reductions could be effectedthe item connected with our military establishment . He theu pointed out the successive additions which had been made to it since 1835 . No less than 5 , 000 seamen were added to the navy in 1836 , to protect us against the Russians . Where was the danger from the Russians now ?—and yet the 5 , 000 mon still remained in the navy . In 1838 , no less than 8 , 000 men were added to the army , to meet the exigency ofthe Canadian rebellion . That rebellion had been suppressed in a few months , but the 8 , 000 men we had to the present day . In 1839 , the right hon . member for the city of London ( Lord J . Russell ) , who was then Home Secretary , moved for an increase of 5000 men rank and
, file for the army , and he told us what they were wanted for . There had been an apprehended insurrection at Monmouth : I allude to the affair of Frost , Williams , and Jones . There was some turbulence in that part of the country by the Chartist party , and the noblo lord told us that 5 , 000 men were required to meet those domestic troubles . Well , but we have liad an interval of several years of uninterrupted peace at home , during which the Cliartist 3 have been scarcely heard of , and yet there remain these 5 , 000 men . ( Loud cheers . ) We never heard of their reduction . ( Hear , hear . ) Our difficulties in China , our interference with Syria , and thc M'Leod dispute in America , led , in 1841 , to the addition of 5 , 000 sailors to the navy : these
difficulties , interferences , and disputes had passed away , but the 5 , 000 sailors still remained on our hands . In the following year we had an addition to the nary of 4 , 000 men more , to enable us to meet the exigencies of the Maine boundary question : the treaty of Washington put an end to that question , but the increase was perpetuated . In 1845 a dispute arose between this country and America , respecting thc Oregon boundary . An addition was that year made to our military estimates of no less than £ 1 , 700 , 000 . That dispute was happily terminated , but no reduction had since been ' made in the estimates . But in 1846 , no sooner was the Oregon question settled , than wc entered into diplomatic quarrel with France _respecting the Spanish
marriages . Icall itadiplomatic quarrel , though Imight call it a court quarrel —( hear , hear _)^ -for the people of this country had no interest in it . But it gave rise to bad blood in France , and a state of irritation in this country , and the press of the two countries fanned the flame , and no one could deny that there was a great alienation , if not hostility , between the two countries . That was increased by the previous Eublication of Prince Jbinville ' s pamphlet , and also y the old grud ge in the case of Mr . Prichard . This produced a bad spirit between us and France , and , accordingly , we increased our " miscellaneous " that year by £ 1 , 200 , 000 . In 1847 the same spirit continued between the two countries , until we had discussions about fortifying our coasts arrainst an
attack from France ; and at the end of ' 47 we had a panic amongst us , and we were then persuaded by Mr . Pigou , the gunpowder maker—( loud laughter ) —that the French were actually coming to attack us . ( Renewed laughter . ) We had another increase of army" and ordnance in ' 47 to the amount of £ 1 , 000 , 000 . The actual increase for army , navy , and ordnance in * 47 was , I believe , £ 1 , 600 , 000 , but whether exceptions be taken to some of the items I know not . I ask the House whether there is one of the causes which led to these successive augmentations of our marine , army , and ordnance which now remains ? ( Hear , hear . ) The last of which I have spoken , I think , might have been the most serious of
aU , though , as I stated , it was only a diplomatic quarrel : but as it became dynastic , and as the second generation , in the person of Prince Joinville , had entered into it , it mi g ht have grown into something serious between the two countries , if the question had not been solved by a very rude handthe late revolution in France—which'has put an end to all possibility of quarrelling between us and France on the subject of the marriages in Spain . ( Heai _* . ) For , whatever other grounds of danger and apprehension may remain , no one need apprehend that France and England will quarrel about the successor to the Spanish crown . ( Hear , hear . ) Not one of the causes which had led to these
successive augmentations to our army , navy , and ordnance now remained . Indeed , so far as ouv foreign relations were concerned , we were on a far better footing now than in 1 S 35 , when our military expenditure was comparatively low . They were told that our establishments were too low that year , but this he denied . Having shown that there was nothing in the present state of our foreign relations to justify our present expenditure , the honourable gentleman then proceeded to examine how far our military outlays upon our colonies were justifiable by the real exigencies of thc case . After referring to some other colonies , he said : —In Sew Zealand you have 2 , 000 rank and file , and not 20 , 000 European inhabitants ; that is about one soldier for every ten
colonists ; that one soldier having been carried from England , at the expense ofthe people ofthe country , a distance of 12 , 000 or 15 , 000 miles , to be fed and clothed in the midst ofa people , every one of whom carries his own rifle , and knows how to use it . In Australia you are bound to send an armed force of 2 , 000 or 3 , 000 as a police force to look after the convicts ; but where there is no sueh danger—where there arc no aboriginal inhabitants , and not even a beast of prey to injure the colonists , I do say it is bad policy and gross injustice to compel us to pay for a military establishment , which the colonists themselves would prefer being without , provided you give them the control of their own affairs . I do believe that much of this force is kept up to
enable our Colonial Office to administer its affairs in the way it does . ( Hear , hear . ) That it is kept up more tb enable the government to keep down the population than to protect that population against an enemy . ( Hear , hear . ) I consider tbat free trade has enabled you to reduce your expenditure to a less point than 1835 , and yet leave you all the necessary force you may require for protection at home . It has been shown that only one-third of our troops are permanently employed in this country , while two-thirds are maintained for the colonies . That is a system wliich requires a change , and if you do change it you can no longer have any difficulty in making the reduction I call for . I am aware tliat repecting armaments at home , you have now a
much larger force m England and Ireland than in 1835 . I am very sorry it is so ; and I think there has prevailed a most exaggerated idea as to the necessity of that force . Last year all were in a panic , and could not reason on the subject . But we have no longer that excuse , while the trials in the courts of lawln reference to the disturbances that did take place have thrown much light upon what has been unworthily dignified by the name of insurrection . It has been clearly shown that neither in England nor Ireland have there been 100 men confederated together with arras to war against the crown and government of this country . I believe that that comedy of a revolution was never sustained by meetings of more than thirty men , and of these six
or eight were spies . ( A laugh . ) I believe , moreover , if what I have heard from magistrates and others be true , that whatever of revolutionary-feeling there was in the disturbance here came from Hibernian inspiration , that if it had not been for the Irish elements there would have been no turbulence amongst the English population . Besides , it should be recollected , that in justice to that country and to the mass of the working people , that for eighteen months previous to the outbreak of the French Revolution , they had passed through a crisis of great difficulty , privation , and suffering . ( Hear , hear . ) This pressure of 1847 was felt particularly in the counties of York and Lancaster , and yet not the slhrhtest tendency to turbulence or poUtical
excitement of any kindwas evinced . The " people believed in their conscience that every ounce of food that could find its way to this country was admitted into it—they knew that the Navigation Laws were suspended , and they felt that the government had not p laced themselves in antagonism to them , and with this conviction on their mind thoy abstained from all acts of hostility towards the government , and evinced those of perfect loyalty and order . Notwithstanding this , attempts , which I own have filled me with feelings of surprise , not unmixed with indignation , have heen made _tojrovc that it has been our troops , and our artillery , and the hundreds of thousands of special constables alone who prevented a large portion of the people of this country from rising into rebellion . I don't believe it —( hear , hear ) - _^ -and I am happy to think I have no reason to believe' it ; for if it were true it would be very
unfortunate for the country . There is another point I feel bound to notice in justice to the people of this country , and in mercy to those deluded men who are now . expiating their crimes or follies , or both . I hope that at some future time it will be considered , particularly in reference to the case of the young men , that when they erred this country was exposed to the influence of an electric shock which had been felt all through Europe , and that itwas not an unnatural thing that men with vivid fancies or sanguine temperaments , or who felt keenly for the sufferings of the people , should have been seized with the idea of revolutionising the country . Tou had every reason to expect some attempt of ihe kind , and yoa have now _reason to congratulate yourselves that after a short interval you should find so little trace of it . But the _onclusion I draw from all this is , that youcannot at the present moment take the condition of the neople aV & justification for keeping upa larger military force ia England than usual , Oa the ground , therefore _.
Moxday, February 2g. House Of Lords. — H...
of our foreign relations , on the ground of our _co \ o < mai connexions , and with reference to our domestic position , I see no reason whatever to prevent the executive government from being authorised by this house , as an act of justice and mercy to the taxpayers of the nation , largelv to reduce our naval and military forces . ( Hear * , hear . ) It is not my intention to tell you on this occasion what I would do with the money saved , or how you might relieve the commercial and agricultural industry of the country by a large remission of taxation . I will not anticipate thc opportunities which hon .
gentlemen opposite will give me of proving to them that tfthey wish to abolish the malt tax andthe hop duties , it must and can only bo effected by their voting for some such measure as I propose . I am prepared to remove every obstacle I can to the full use and development of labour and capital , whether in agriculture or manufactures . ( Hear , hear . ) It was impossible , however , there could be any effective reduction of taxation , unless it was preceded by a large reduction of expenditure , and whether he looked :-at the state of affairs abroad or at home he thought this was a proper time to make that reduction . Mr . Cobden thus concluded : —
At all events , I think it will not be difficult- to reduce the expenditure to what it was in 1835 . ( Hear , hear . ) I can only say , if it were left to me to do it , I would do it in this way : I would spend not moro than ten millions for our armaments ; I would have them as efficient as they could be , but they should not cost more than ten millions . I would bave the remainder for the civil expenditure ; I would have £ 1 , 600 , 000 moro for that as there wonld bo 1 , 600 , 000 less for the military and naval expenditure . ( Hear , hear . ) Thus preserving the total amount as it was in 1835 ; but giving one and a half million more to the civil expenditure , and taking it from the military and naval expenditure , you may , I am confident , return to . the expenditure of 1835 . ( Hear , hear . ) And I venture to predict , having had
some previous experience in watching the development of public opinion , that nothing less will satisfy the people of this country . The feeling in favour of economy has grown much within the last year . ( Hear , hear . ) This House itself bears witness of it . ( Hear , hear . ) I have seen such evidence of the progress of opinion on this subject that I have not the least doubt , in a comparatively short time , thc expenditure of this country may be brought back to the expenditure of 1835 . ( Hear , hear . ) I will conclude by merely saying , that I consider , in advocating the reduction of expenditure , I am advocating the removal of those impediments to industry which cause disease , pauperism , and crime in thc country ; a measure which will tend to make the people contented and happy citizens , instead of being
miserable , dejected , and disaffected ; in giving men something to fight for in this country , something to preserve , and to love , instead of making them the enemies of our institutions . ( Hear , hear . ) Every step that you take in that way , in mitigating tho pressure of taxation on the people and showing that a government of this kind may be carried on as cheaply as the governments in other countries , will do more to preserve your institutions ; ay , and will do more to preserve yourselves from foreign attacks than any amount which you can expend in military and naval preparations . ( Cheers . ) The Chancellor ofthe Exchequer complimented Mr . Cobden upon the temperate manner in which he had brought this subject forward , and glancing slightly at the subject of local taxation , which had
little connexion with thc question , observed , that Mr . Cobden's argument for assuming 1835 as a standard to which we should go back depended upon two conditions ; first , that m that year adequate provision was made for thc public service ; and secondly , that no subsequent changes had taken place calling for increase . The exesss of £ 9 , 763 , 000 of expenditure in 1848 over that of 1835 , was not , he remarked , attributable to the augmentation of the naval and military establishments alone ; and he undertook to show that it was not consistent with the true interests of the country—the protection of life and property at home , and of trade and commerce abroad—to effect a reduction in these establishments to the extent proposed by Mr . Cobden . The right hon . gentleman then proceeded to show
the grounds upon which the successive additions which had been made to the number ofmcnbotli in the navy and army were perfectly justifiable . A large increased expenditure had lately been incurred in the necessary creation of a steam navy , an expenditure which might now be greatly reduced , and in which some considerable reductions had already been made . Great improvements had also recently been made in the manufacture of arms , and much expense had been incurred in providing our force with improved weapons , without which it would be both cruel and impolitic to send it into the field _. But expenses of this nature wero only temporary in their character , and much of the augmentations complained of consisted of such
expenses . It had , therefore , not been without reason that the greatej * part , at least , of these augmentations had been made . He was as favourable as any one could be to practical retrenchment , but he was far from seeing his way to such sweeping reductions as were proposed by _' Mr . Cobden . He then proceeded to show that the government had not been unmindful of its duty as regarded its care of the pockets of the people . We were now in a very different position from that which we occupied about this time last year . Our foreign relations were in a much more satisfactory condition than then , nor was there now any prospect ofa disturbance ofthe peace at home . It was these considerations that had induced tho
Government to come to tho conclusion of proposing some reductions to the House which it would not otherwise have felt it its duty to do . The government had now the power of proposing a considerable reduction both in the army and navy . The army , last year , stood at 113 , 000 . It was now proposed to reduce it to 103 , 001 ) men , boin <» a reduction of 10 , 000 men . A reduction of expenditure was effected last year , without a reduction of our force , to thc extent of £ 828 , 500 . The reductions in the estimates of this year , as compared , not with the original , but with the reduced , estimates of last year , would amount , in connexion with the navy , to upwards of £ 730 , 000 '; in connexion with the army , to about £ 378 , 624 ; in connexion with the ordnance , to £ 337 , 873 ; these reductions amounting in all to
£ 1 , 447 , 353 . As compared with the original estimates ot last year , they would amount to £ 2 , 275 , 873 . The income of the year up to the oth of January was £ 52 , 933 , 693 . The expenditure , exclusive of the Kaffir war , and some other items , had been £ 52 , 563 , 340 , the difference being about £ 370 , 000 , which remained as k balance of income over expenditure . He calculated that next year he would lose on corn about £ 780 , 000 . There was then the sum of £ 580 , 000 which he could not calculate upon again as appropriations in aid , whilst he had last year received £ 80 , 000 of China moneya sum which he could not reckon upon receiving for the coming year . He would then lose upon the whole about £ 1 , 360 , 000 . But , as ho had already shown , thc reductions which would be
proposed would amount , as compared with their revised estimates of last year , to £ 1 , 447 , 353 . The reductions cotnemplated , therefore , would exceed the loss ofthe revenue on which they might calculate for the coming year , so thajfc there was every reason to believe that the expenditure would be within the income of next year , although the loss of income would approximate to a million and a half . Having shown that it would not be wise to make at once the large reductions proposed by Mr . Cobden , and that khe government had not boen unmindful of its duty in connexion with the question of retrenchment , he expressed a hope that the House would give a decided expression of opinion against such sweeping reductions as were contemplated by the amendment .
Mr . J . O _CoysELt pointed out tho bearing winch the condition of Ireland had upon this question , declaring that if that country was ruled justly and wisely with aproper attention to her wants , £ 800 , 000 a-year mig ht be saved . Sir De Lacy Evans cleared the officers of the army from the imputations thrown upon them by the Financial Eeform Association . Mr . Home repeated that the fault of these aggravated establishments rested with that House , and that they had been kept up by _aristocratical influence . He was sorry to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the greatest efforts of the government could onl y bring the expenditure within the revenue . The people of this country would not bo satisfied with this—they would require a
reduction of their burdens . Mr . Cobden , he contended , had made out a clear case , and had had no answer to his question , why the successive additions made to the different branches of the expenditure should be still maintained . Mr . Herries said , tho question reall y was whether the House was prepared now to reduce the expenditure by £ 10 , 000 , 000 . The Chancellor of the Exchequer had commended the temperate speech of Mr . Cobden , who had said the same things there as he had dene elsewhere , but not in the same language . He ( Mr . Herries ) admitted thatthe tone of the hon . gentleman was extremely quiet—that it was a tone such as suited the atmosphere of that House ; but he could not forget that his statements were but repetitions of what had been ringing in . t ¦ r _~— «* ¦ . _wi / _mllio _Trnot T , » _rtiM T . 1 ,- /» i » r _\/\/ iTl * . nil tneir ior i \ _iuuuwo vuiiinvjjiwiiiiiu
ears - » .. _vm * « Manchester , and every other scene of ag itation . ( Protectionist choers . ) In thoso places the same things had boon said , but not in the same language . Different , indeed , was the language which the hon . gentleman used in that House and which ho was ro _^ ported to have used elBewhero . In that House they heard no diatribes against tho aristocracy—no insinuations that the army was intended to amuse young men of family and fashion with fine clothes , —no low insinuations of that nature ; but , if the hon gentleman were to speak two languages- _^ -if he were to be violent in one place and decorous in another , better be violent in that House and decorous where inflammatory language might produce ill effects . ( Loud Protectionist _cneei-s , echoed from the . Ministerial benohes . ) He could not but think thatthe conduct of tb © _government last session had
Moxday, February 2g. House Of Lords. — H...
he _Jstmate h M CC of whicM thev now felt . If _tVre _% 2 _^ J _felted as tliey ought to withdrawn C fi at . Ir ° u * - * « _ml 'ad not been izot-Vz iSe Sr tion h _? the V * _?* entertain _tbSSrf # co . _*}« wtteo refused to bility such an nvT _^ thcu ' Pohc . . - _« U _probarLEisHflfr _- _* _' _-e been afforded perfectly _saSSLteiuNr _' _' _^ T country , ( near bo ,, ? \ _V _*** Hoi , « mm" to the the Chancel o _?' of thi _^ , thoaB _^ , therefore , cause tn l ii , Exchequer had some which , in _t J i , for that _agitatl he hid h «« - speech he had just made ,
ingly ill supported . They had all beard of It lot lusiriends . ( Cheers and ironical _laughter V Whv The _tTl } ° S 0 COn _* d him * _(^ _SThighlSi _ExchSrSV ST . 1 ™ tl _* ° Chancellor ° of thi tion Xr *? fr d w ei' _^ _Iny *?! _rtuny restated tho motion _, lie ( Mr . Hemes ) wished the riirht hon _<* ensSt idtIV morc _-WaiftaI had ° refor _Montioi rf _' ? s 50 _, n } _ething' The hon . member hid _nosZa i ° _. tackle _- t 0 th 0 motion _•*» a" ! •« - _wasfor _^ i ? f _*? _7- _^ motion . He ( Mr . Hemes ) mdto rn ,, l I ' *' " _* . J' U COuld m _^ -t I ho Was _EfS S ' but he could not believe that the hon . member was earnest in _making this motion , _f Ilea .-.
Z \ L _* 7 _t I- m think tlwt the ton . member for _^ . _" est _* ll _*«* nff anticipated any success from this m _? r -- ' _- _-Wait ; wait a little . -fxrl n _? j ™ addre * -S ( -d himself to the arguments _£ ¦ £ ? _, ; . d i _* He ahowcd U ( w _realh' _™ _n-™ _h « L _? COui _* tl _* y was a comparison fairlv _^? + _^ _en _« s expenditure and that of France pnLJ _? i ? f _whlch _ag' _-at'on in the latter country had exerted upon its finances . He then adverted to an element in the question whicli had been only superficially noticed — namely , the enormous sum of taxation repealed on reduced , whilst tho amount of revenue remained nearly the same as before . He was as earnest an advocate as any for reduction of expenditure where practicable , but he deprecated any attack upon a lar
particuitem , and any concession to agitation from without . Foreign affairs required the greatest caution ; rebellion was not extinct in Ireland , and the House should hesitate before it recorded a vote that might hamper the defence of the country . Mr . M . Gibson thought that it eould _' not be very consolatory to the agriculturists to find their financial leader hold out to them such slender hopes of a reduction of expenditure , for it was solely upon a reduction of expenditure that must be grounded whatever was proposed in the nature of relief to the tenant farmers . The right hon . gentleman then proceeded to enforce at considerable length the views expressed by Mi * . Cobden , fortifving them by numerous illustrations of his own . Mr . Cobden had precedent and experience in favour of his proposition , and , as the government liad conceded a reduction in the whole of £ 2 , 500 , 000 , lie had little doubt
that £ 10 , 000 , 000 might be saved in our expenditure . The professional evidence to the amount of naval and military forces requisite for tlie wants of the country was conflicting ; but when public opinion bore upon the question , tho government , whether "Whig or Tory , reduced the expenditure , and as soon as that opinion ceased to act , it increased it . Our naval armament was kept up in some parts , not for use , but for parade ; it was time enough to send out squadrons when we were threatened with ah attack . Much was said of foreign establishments , but we did not regulate ours thereby ; in the French navy there were 931 officers , in ours , 3 , 931 ; wc had 150 admirals , the united States not one . Mr . Cobden did not ask an immediate reduction , but that the House would declare that the present cxpendiditure was excessive , and should be reduced with all practicable speed .
Mr . Urquhart opposed Mr . Cobden ' s motion , and Mr . M'Gregor supported it , advocating not only retrenchment , but a modification , of the system of taxation . Mr . Axstey concurred with Mr . Herries that the effect of the resolution was to call upon the House to make an immediate reduction of £ 10 , 000 , 000 in the expenditure , and he charged Mr . Cobden with swelling thc majority of Lord Palmerston , whose foreign policy had created much of tbo increase of expenditure of which he now complained . He denied that thc reduction demanded was safe or probable , and called upon every well-wisher of his country to oppose the resolution . Colonel Sibtiiop . p had no reliance in the assertion or thc conduct of either the hon . member for the
West Riding , who brought forward the motion , or of his right hon . relative ( the Chancellor ofthe Exchequer ) , who opposed it . He looked upon the motion as a snake in the grass , but ho was determined it should not bite him . ( A laugh , ) Having no confidence either in the motion or the opposition to it , he should abstain altogether from voting , and leave the House . Tho hon . and gallant member , suiting thc action to the word , immediately withdrew , amid mingled laughing and cheering . Loud calls for the division from both sides of the house followed tho hon . and gallant member ' s exit , and , as no one offered to rise , strangers were ordered to withdraw , but before the galleries wero cleared
Mr . Bright rose and addressed himself to the refutation of thc fallacies with whicli he thought the speech of Mr . Herries replete . The right hon . gentleman had quite misapprehended Mr . _fcobdon ' s object in instituting a comparison between tlie taxation of England and Prance . Mr . Herries had attempted to show that democratic governments were prone to _^ extravagance , and cited the case of Franco in support of his proposition . He had also alluded to America , as aftording similar proof . A more unfortunate allusion could not havo been made , as it appeared from Mr . Mackay ' s Western World , a work recently published , that expenditure in America was kept at a low obb _. And ao with taxation , it
appearing from the same work that the whole taxation of the people of Sew York ( one of the most highlytaxed States ) was less per head for all purposes than our taxation per head for tlie support of our military establishments alone . Tho hon . gentleman then addressed himself to tho general question , urging upon the House the absolute necessity which existed for a speedy and a material reduction of our expenditure , and a substantial diminution of our taxation , He particularly pressed this upon the agricultural members , reminding them that it was indispensable to a reduction of the burdens which wciffhed upon the farmers , that large reductions should be made in our expenditure .
Mr . Drommond was somewhat suspicious of the new friends to the farmer , who had suddenly started up behind tho Treasury bench . He would advise the farmers , however , not to trust their enemies even when they came with gifts . Our armaments should only be reduced with reference to the situation of this country and that of foreign states ; but that consideration was entirely lost sight of by those who supported the amendment . The House tben diveded , andthe numbers wore—For the amendment ( Mr . Cobden ' s resolution ) ... ... ... ... 78 Against it ... ... ... ... 275 Majority against —197 The amendment being rejected , tlio House went into committee of supply pro forma , the committee to sit again on Friday .
The Uclicf of Distress ( Ireland ) Bill then went through committee . The _oiher business was then disposed of , and the House adjourned at one o'clock .
TUESDAY , February 27 . HOUSE OF LORDS . —The Irish Poor Law . — Lord St . vsi . -by , with the view of being in _Gi-der , m attacking the course which the government had pursued with respect to the committees of either House on the subject ofthe Irish Poor Laws , moved that a message be sent to the Commons requesting a copy of the first report of the committee of that House on that subject . The noble lord proceeded to indicate the course which had been taken in the Ilouse of Lords : —The committee having been appointed , on thc motion of the noble Marquis the Lord President , that noble lord laid certain resolutions before the committee , but declined to pledge himself as to the measures on which the
government had come to a positive conclusion , and wliich related to various subjects in connexion with tho Irish Poor Law on which it was fitting tliat information should be received . This was a proper course , no doubt , but he was surprised to learn that in the other House of Parliament a very different course had been pursued . There it appeared the Fh * 3 t Lord ofthe Treasury had declared that , the resolutions were submitted to the government , that they adopted them , and if the committee did not affirm them the noble lord said they would bo submitted to parliament on tho responsibility of the government alone . The next step was a motion made in the committee by members not connected with government _, that unon the resolutions so submitted
evidence should be taken ; this proposition was however negatived by the membors of tho government , the First Lord ofthe Treasury declaring that her Majesty ' s government would permit no _investigation to take place . There was an inconsistency Fn the COUI'ae pursued by different members of the government , which it was impossible to reconcile with the respect due to either House of Parliament , tothe noble Marquis , or to the general course of the administration of thc country . After referring to the state of _Irehm'l , and of Irish , landlords , as af . fected by thc coeration of the present poor laws , the noble lord concluded by expressi _ng his hope that the _goveianient would reconsider their determination of _sedating tho _action of a rate in aid , from the , remainder of the question , oi-that tho _roMatifA-mtMiisbte pressed QP _« the House
Moxday, February 2g. House Of Lords. — H...
of Commons , until thoir lordships , from the evidenc * to be g iven before their committee , had satisfied themselves whether it ought to bo -considered alone or not . The Marquis of _LaXdbdowxj _* , after describing at some length the course lie liad taken in reference to this subjeet , and referring to the proceedings beforo the committee ofthe Commons , said : —It appeared to him that the course taken by tlie latter committee , however anxious they might be to obtain complete information , arose from the conviction of immediate assistance being necessary to be afforded to the Irish people to continue for the next few months . He certainl y had no hesitation in saying that he wished no separation had taken place between the first resolution and those which immediately followed , because if the question of a temporarv rate
in aid was to be entertained by parliament , he thought it ought to be in connexion with the other question of establishing a maximum of poor-rate in all the counties of Ireland , and no consideration on earth should induce him to assent to a measuro the effec t of which should be to render the rate in aid permanent . Upon the whole , lie thought it would be found that there existed an apparent rather than a real discrepancy between the course pursued by the two committees . Lord Brougham expressed his pleasure at hearing the reluctance with wliich the noble marquis had given his assent to a rate , and he hoped the recent £ 50 , 000 grant would bo the last made to Ireland . The royal assent was given by commission to tlie Inland Revenue and thc Habeas Corpus Suspension ( Ireland ) bills , and their lordships adjourned .
TUESDAY , February 28 . HOUSE OF COMMONS .-Tho business was of a very miscellaneous character , consisting chiefly of what the Frondi call " interpellations . " A number of questions were put and answered on almost every variety of subject . Among other topics were : — The Mutilation * or Despatches . —Mr . Baillie begged to express a hope tliat tlio despatches about to be sent to the committee upstairs , relativo to the affairs of Ceylon and British Guiana , _wouhl not be mutilated in the way in which former documents of a similar kind had been . ( Cries of " Oh , oh ! " and " Question ! " ) The question was—were tho despatches likely to be mutilated 1 ( Renewod cries ot "Oh , oh ! " ) He hold a despatch in his hand which contained about eleven lines , and from it there appeared to havo been something extracted . Mr . IIAWE 3 . —AVhat is your question ?
Mr . Baillie . —Whether they will bo presented to tho committee without mutilation . Mr . Hawes ( warmly ) . —I think the question is a most unusual one to a _' sk . ( Hear . ) It is calculated to excite a prejudice , which I am happy to havo this opportunity of entirely repudiating . I have seen it stated moro than once , by parties whom the hon . member may know , that there havo been instances in which despatches were mutilated by my noble friend the Secretary forthe Colonies , for some purposes of concealment . Sir , it is utterly unfounded— altogether unfounded — that that has ever been done . ( Cheers . ) It will be in the recollection of thc House that certain despatches were moved for by the late Lord George Bontinck _, and that an explanation was given by me at tho time . The despatches in question related to somo apprehended disturbances in the island of Jamaica , in consequence of thc monopolists there having been
disappointed at tho passing ofthe Sugar Bill in England . The language used was , tliat several of tho plantation proprietors were going to transfer their allegiance to the United States . The despatches contained a statement relative to thc threatened disturbances ; they referred to particular individuals by name . They embodied depositions whicli had not been taken before the magistrates , and also some unproved charges ; and those parts which had refernece to charges of that nature against individuals were struck out , a courso which I am perfectly prepared to take again if necessary . ( Hear , hear . ) I think I have met tho charge ofthe hon . gentleman , and now I beg to tell him that when the committee meets there will not be the slightest objection to lay before them tho wholo of the despatches received , not for the uso of the Heusc or the public , but in order to show them that there is nothing to justify the term " mutilation , " which has been used . Whatever was withhold on a
former occasion was extracted simply with a view to the just ' protection of private character ; and my noblo friend , tho Secretary for the Colonies , would have been unworthy the position he holds liad ho scrupled to act as he did . ( Hear , hear . ) Mr . Baillie . —Will you lay the despatches before the House ? Mr , Hawes . _—Ccrt-unl y not . I will lay them before the committee , but not bofore tho House and the public . Mr . Baillie . —You must recollect that the committee does not sit on tho affairs of Jamaica , but on those of Ceylon . Mr . Hawes . —I will not consent to lay them before the House and the public . Mr . _Osborxe . —Is the committee to be a secret one ?
Mr . Hawes . —Certainly not , so far as I know . ( Hear , hear . ) Mr . Hume . —I thought they wore to sit on the affairs of the colonies generally . ( Loud cries of "No , no . " ) Mr . Baillie . —They are limited to thoso of Ceylon . Coxsul at California . —Mr . Wyld inquired , amidst general laughter , whether it was tho intention of her Majesty ' s Ministers to appoint a consul at San Francisco or at any of the ports of California ?
Lord Palmerston replied that this was a question whicli had not now been put to him for the first time , lie had had it put to him privately before , by some who wero interested on behalf of others , and some who wero interested in their own prospects . { Laughter . ) But he had no intention of appointing any consul at present , because , as every lion , member must see , there was no form of government that lie knew of established in California with whom a consul could communicate . He might , to be sure , communicate with tho gold-fincters . ( Loud laughter . ) The Irish Debate . —Mr . J . _O'Cox . VELLsaid that
two important objects could be attained—that of having only one debate on Irish affairs , and enabling hon . members to express their views fully with regard to the sister country—if the noble - lord at the head ofthe government would fix Thursday , Friday , or Monday for the bringing forward of liis motion relative to thc first report on Irish Poor Laws . Lord J . Russell replied that he was _anxioss to introduce the motion on Thursday , but that three other motions , of which notice had been given by the hon . member for Bath ( Lord Ashley ) , thc hon . member for Cork ( Mr . Fagax ) , and the hon . member for _Nottingham ( Mr . F . O'Coxxor ) , stood inthe
way . At the suggestion of Mr . Roche , Mr . Faoa . y and Mr . O'Coxxor consented to withdraw their notices of motion for Thursday in order that the noble lord might have precedence . Ceylox axd British Guiaxa . —Mr . Baillib nominated the following as members of the select committee on grievances in the colonies of Ceylon and British Guiana - . —Mr . Hume , Sir J . Walmsley , Sir R . Peel , Sir J . Hogg , Mr . Gladstone , Mr . Disraeli , Mr . C . Villiers , Mr . Hawes , Mr . Adderley , Mr , Wilson , Mr . S . Wortley , Lord Hotham , Mr . Baillie , Mr . M'Cullagh , and Major Blackall . —Agreed to . The House adjourned at half-past seven o ' clock .
WEDNESDAY , _Februahv . 28 . HOUSE OF COMMONS . —The Issolvsst Mem _bers Bill was referred to a select committee up
stairs . _PL'CLIC Roads Bili ,, —Mr . C _, Lewis then moved thc second reading ofthe Public Roads Bill . Objections had been taken to tho provisions of the bill m the form in which it had been introduced . It had been his endeavour , in the interval , to meet these objections , ns far as possible , consistently with the objects of the measure . One of the chief objections then urged against it was , that it made the county rate liable for the expense of keeping up the roads in each county . He endeavoured to meet this by alterations in the bill , which still left the county rate ultimately liable in case of a deficiency of tlie tolls , which would constitute tho security of the bondholders—a deficiency which ho did not anticip ate . There were other alterations introduced into the bill , which , however , need not here be more particularly referred to .
Mr . W . Miles regarded the bill , in its modified shape , as an improvement upon tho moasure which had been originally introduced . It was , however , so altered as to be virtually a new bill , and as the alterations had not been printed , and the matter ¦ was one which required great consideration , ho _suj _* - _n-estcd the propriety of postponing tho second reaufn < " for a fortnight , the bill , as modifiod _, to be immediately printed , and nut into the hands of members , so that they would have ample timo to consider it before coming to its discussion . A lon «* and desultory discussion hereupon ensued , which Tasted for upwards of two hours , and in which some dozens of members took part . With one or two exceptions they all agreed as to the _pronriotv ofnuttins tho public roads of tho kingdom
under an improved system of management , " but differed widely from each ' other in tho interpretation which they put upon tho provisions of the bill as altered . Some had a few of their objections removed , others nearly all which they ' had entertained to the original bill , but none wore perfectly satisfied , whilst all offered suggestions for its further improvement . The majority who spoke wero in favour of postponement , some suggesting thc withdrawal of the bill , and its re-introduction in its modified shape , with some further improvements , as ah " entirely new bill . Sir George Groy objected to both propositions , his object in so doing being to facilitate the progress of tho measure . It would b « printed , after naving passed tha second reading and ample time would be g iven to consider its provisions betm ita _uommittal . To this _course ,
Moxday, February 2g. House Of Lords. — H...
however , the majority ofthe House seemed averse , and thc Government * _tin-iing that many members , who were in favour , not O ' Ay of the principle , but also of many of the provisions of the bill , would vote against tho second _readins , if then pressed , ultimately withdrew it : Mr . C . Lewis , in withdrawing tlie bill , observed that he did so on tho understanding tl « t it wouhl bo re-introduced immediatel y . Tlie bill was * then withdrawn , and the hon . gentleman thereupon moved for leave to introduce a bill with a similar object to that of the measure withdrawn . Leavo given . Offexces ( Irelaxd ) Bill . —Sir II . W . Baruox then moved the second reading of the _OffencC _3- ( Ii'claiid ) " Bill . Its principal object was to prevent
offenders arrested for offenccs _' of a trivial character from being confinBd __ in the county gaols , and there detained for a long time before trial . Justice would thus be done to the accused , and the counties would be saved much expense . Tho bill contained other provisions , conferring ( in certain cases ) certain powers upon justices , constables , and other persons . Ho could assure the House that he had iiad ablo legal assistance in drawing up the bill , and hoped that no objection would be offered to the second reading . Iii framing the bill , the Dublin Police Act had been closely kept in view . Mr . Drc . mmo . nd drew the attention of the Ilouse to the scope and provisions of the bill , which would meet , if persisted in , with his most strenuous opposition . It was seldom that acts of Parliament wore
pleasant reading , but this was ono of tho " funniest productions that had over como under his notice . He then proceeded to make a most amusing analysis of tho bill , wliich , in his opinion , might be well entitled a bill k > " en : _iblo every Irishman to alTOSt another Irishman . " ( Laughter on all sides . ) So arbitrary wero its provisions , and so trivial were tho offences which it made penal , tliat , under it , any constablo or any other person could , with or without warrant , arrest any ono who was found feloniously plucking a leaf o ' f sweetbriar . There was one clause in the bill to whicli he was sure tliat Englishmen , if it were likely to pass , would give their cordial assent , and that was the clause which limited its operation to Ireland . ( Laughter . ) The interpretation clause was in _koopins * with tho rest of tho
bill , enacting as it did that ' the' male should include the female . " ( Great laughter . ) In his opinion tho bill instructively illustrated the fitness of Irishmen for tho coveted work of domestic legislation ( Hear , hear ; and laughter . ) Mr . ¥ .. B . HociiE congratulated tlio lion , baronet on having at last introduced something even worse than tlie Habeas Corpus Bill . A more ridiculous or preposterous measure had never been submitted to the House . It empowered anybody in Ireland to take up anybody else , for doing anything or nothing . ( Laughter . ) Ho protested on his own behalf , and on that of thc Irish members with whom he generally acted , against its being supposed that they were in the _slightest degreo , or 'in any way whatever , connected with so arbitrary and absurd a measure . ( Laughter . )
Colonel Duxsk observed , that he found himself peculiarly situated with regard to the bill , seeing that his liame was on tho back of it . ( Laughter . ) Some legislation on tho subject was absolutely necesssary . He had not read the bill , nor was he aware of the peculiar character of its provisions until Mr . Drummond had explained thorn . ( Laughter renewed ) . Now that it had been analysed , he saw that it was perfectly impossible that , as it stood , it could receive the assent of thc House . He , at least , could not give it his support . ( Laughter ) . Mr . Staffohd must remark that- Irish members on his side ofthe houso had had nothing to do with this bill . ( Laughter , ) They understood it was part of the remedial and comprehensive policy of lion _, gentlemen opposite , but it appeared now that it
was the work " of thehon . baronet alone . ( Laughter . ) Sir O . _Oiikv said that repudiation . seemed to be the order of the day . ( A Laugh . ) He wished to state on the part of the government that they could not support the bill in its present form . Tiie lion _, baronet said tho object of it was to clear the gaols of Ireland , and one mode which he had proposed for doing so was to take an indefinite number of petty ott'ences and punish them by fines without any -tower of enforcing thc payment of those tines by means of imprisonment . ( Alaugh . ) He found that a beggar was to bo liable to a fine of 40 s . ( Great laughter . ) IIow could that be enforced except by imprisonment ? He was unwilling to add to the unfavourable comments made on the bill by members from tho hon . baronet ' s own country , and he would advise him to communicate freely with hon . membors from Ireland and certainly with the hon . gentleman whoso name was put on the back of the bill . ( A laugh . ) Mr . Napier , also commented on the various clauses
of the bill . By clause three , a penalty of 40 s . was enacted against every person who " set on or urged any dog or other animal to attack , worry , Of put ill fear , any person , horse , or other animal" ( great laughter , )—so that that " other animal" might be a two-legged or a four-legged donkey . ( Laughter . ) Mr . A . Herbert hoped the people of Ireland would ponder well on this Draconic code for regulating their conduct , brought in by the champion of the moral force Repealers of Waterford . ( Hear . ) Mr . J . O'Coxxell , on tho part of the moral force Repealers of Ireland , repudiated the lion , _btironct . ( Groat laughter . ) Tho hon . baronet said this bill was founded on the Dublin Police Act , wliich had never beon complained of . But he ( Mr . O'Connell ) could state that that act was most arbitrary ; but , were it not so , it was only applicable to a largo metropolis , where public opinion prevented an improper use of it . He could not think that the _provision . _-- of tin ' s bill bad emanated from Mr . Berwick , or that he had ever seen it .
Sir W . Barro . n pledged liis reputation —( great laughter)—in direct contradiction to thc statement of tho hon . member for Limerick as to the party who drew up this bill . Ho ( Sir W . Barron ) did not produce this bill or draw up one line of it . He suggested—( great laughter)—not a single line of it . It was presented to him as suggestions from three assistant-barristers in Ireland " —( laughter)—and Mr . Berwick was the person who drew up the details of the bill emphatically as printed . ( Laughter . ) Mr . Berwick was one " of tlio most eminent —( Great laughter . ) Really he ( Sir W . Barron ) had no personal interest in the matter . ( Laughter . ) He was merely requested to bringin the bill , and he believed that thero was not one of its enactments wliich was not punishable in England or in Dublin under tlie
Police Act , or in Ireland ( a laugh ) , but by a more circuitous route . ( Laughter . ) The hon . baronet , after defending the provisions of the bill , said that the hon , member for Kerry had referred to him personally . He would not retort , but he regretted that the hon . member should have thought itnecessary to mako a . personal attack on one hon . member for a bill of this kind , with which ho had no personal interest . He had been , as hon . gentlemen ought to have known , most bitterly abused personally by tho moral force Repealers of Ireland ; they had given him a severely-contested election , and he believed there was no man , in or ont of Ireland , more thoroughly hated by them . ( Great laughter . ) Tlio hon . baronet concluded by saying he should not press the bill ....... , I ., false
Mr . A . Herbert said he had been under , a impression , and was happy at once to retract what he had stated . ( Hear , near . ) Sir W . Barro . n * said the hon . gentleman ' s statement was perfectly satisfactory . Mr . Rev . xolds said that as this bill had been prepared by three assistant-barristers , and revised by a baronet , he thought the lion , baronet had been very ill treated . If he ( Mr . Reynolds ) could recommend its adoption at all , it would be that with such a bill they might repeal all tho coercion acts of Ireland together , ( A faugh . ) Tho hon . baronet said ho was hated by the moral force Repealers . lies ( Mr . Reynolds ) could assure the hon . baronet thathe bore him no hatred —( a laugh );—but , if this bill were a sample of his legislative ability , he made him a present of it . It was quite possible to laugh at , without hating a man . After somo further conversation , the bill was withdrawn and . the curtain dropped on a jvcry laughable scene .
Out-Door Palters Bill . —On the question that the order of the day be read for the House resolving itself into a comniitteo on this bill , Sir H . _Willoucuby said that the bill which they wero then about to consider in committee had only b _' . cn delivered on the 27 th of February , and read a second time at half-past twelve o ' clock in the morning . It would of courso be in the recollection ofthe Houso that very recently the lives of nearly 200 children had been lost in an asylum kept by a person of tho namo of Drouet ; everything relating to this subject had thereforo become a matter of the highest importance ; upon that ground , then , he did not hesitate to call tho attention of the House to tho circumstance that great doubts wore entertained as to whether tho provisions of the bill would meet tho evils and thc difficulties of tho case . He hoped , theroforo , that tho right hon . gentleman opposite would stato his views and intentions on the subject . howeverob
In tho first plaeo , lie should himself , , - serve , that ho saw no reason why the poor should be farmod out of tho workhouses ; he saw no reason why , whether they were of age or under age , they should bo let out to any one to make a profit of them . Every member of that- House would , he felt assured , bear him out in the assertion when lie stated , that one great object of tho Poor Law Amendment Bill was that aU ' paupc-rs should be placed within the workhouse ; and it especially provided , that if , in any case paupers happened to bo sent ouc of the workhouso , tho Poor Law Commissioners should have power to make regulations for their protection and government * but the difficulty lay in making such rules obligatory . It was much to be regretted that there ex . sted no effective system of inspection , and to that he moro particularly begged to call the attention of tho right hon . gentleman opposite , tho chief of the Poor "Law Commission . Having mado thoBo few _obwrvations he had only forthe * - * to say , that ho should bo glad to hear what
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), March 3, 1849, page 7, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/ns3_03031849/page/7/
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