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OPENING OF TAB " " - • t aND CONFERENCE;
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caR I>£NTKRS' HALL, MANCHESTER, Mosdat, ...
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AND NATIONAL
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VOL. EL NO. 422. LONDON, SATURDAY,'DECEi...
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, and would, therethis conferanefeJfc se...
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
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Opening Of Tab " " - • T And Conference;
OPENING OF TAB " " - t aND CONFERENCE ;
Car I>£Ntkrs' Hall, Manchester, Mosdat, ...
caR I > £ NTKRS' HALL , _MANCHESTER Mosdat , Dec . 8 , 1845 . ir a meeting of delegates held in the above Hall , Mondav the Sth of December , 1 S 45 , it was moved f Air Cuffav , and seconded by ilr . Dixon , that Mr . cf _rtrin ° ton be appointed the chairman of the conf " nce- _^ - Hobs 011 moved as _™ amendment , that \ _w M'Gr ath _** appointed chairman . This proposi-; in was ob jected to on the ground that Mr . M'Grath , J being a delegate , could not sit as chairman ; the _^ lendnicut w as therefore withdrawn . - \ Ir She rrington having taken the
chaircreden-. , , ; _ji w ere delivered in from the following places : Mr . Gilbertson , from Carlisle . 5 lr . James Brown , from Preston . jlr . Sherrington , from Seotland .-3 lr . Ilobson , from Huddersfieid . ilr . Knight from Lambeth . jlr . Shaw , from Leeds . jlr . G . W . Wheeler , from Rouen , Boulogne , and Reading , _3 Ir . Saunders , from Nottingham _, ilessrs . Dixon and Leach , from Manchester .
M essrs . Cuffay , from Westminster ; and Taylor , _frtfw Ashton , though unprepared with their credentials , were allowed to take their seats . } 1 . tCufiay moved that a committee of three be _apjKsnted to draw up rales for the guidance of the _confci-cucc ; _ifr . Hobson seconded the resolution . Mr . G . W . Wheeler moved , and Mr . Dixon seconded , that the conference assemble every morning , during _itssitiings , at nine o ' clock , and adjourn at twelve , to _re-assemble at two , and adjourn for the day at five . After the credentials of the delegates had been handed in , and standing orders had been agreed upon , ilr . O'Connor rose and said : —
Ml ' . Chairman and Gentlemen—1 consider the present the most fitting time to offer to the conference an analysis of my own-views npon the several questions that are likely to be submitted to the conference . I regret that severe indisposition has compelled me to rely more npon what I have casually -gathered from my brother directors , than a more close conference with them would have put me in possession of . Gentlemen , but for this circumstance , which I could neither foreseen or obviate , I would very naturally have devoted the short time allowed to me , before the meeting of conference , to have prepared a full digest of my opinions . Under all the circumstances , I have thought it to be the wisest plan to reduce what I had lo say to writing , and I now beg to submit the result of my own thoughts to your consideration . Gentlemen , I shall commence with the
OBJECTS . Tlie object of the association is to locate its members upon theland , whereby the working classes may beaffbrdedan opportunity of judging ofthe real value of their labour in a free market .
TII 73 MEAJfS . The means "by which the association proposes to _realize the object in view , are by purchasing land in the wholesale market , and when purchased , to subdivide it into the most suitable allotments for the use of individual members ; and when so subdivided and leased , in perpetuity to the members , then to mortgage or sell the reserved rent , to enable the trustees to make further purchases , with a view to the location of more of its members , and so on , till all have been provided with their respective allotments according to their several amounts . Thus , the means are to be realised by co-operation , and the object is to be achieved by the adoption of such rules , and their rigid application in economising and fostering thc means of thc society , as this conference shall devise .
iun . ES . Perhaps my remarks , under this head , may bc more properly considered as a running comment npon the .. _bjeet , means , and prospects of the society ; aud _fiiyt in importance stands the great question of legal _protection—sni-olment-( ientlemcn . as far as I can collect the general opinion of the members , it is decidedly in favour of enrolment , and therefore lam bound by my duty to the body , as well as by an interest in the success of the plan , which will bc best served by promoting confidence , to abandon and forego all my own prejudices upon the subject of enrolment .
The legal guarantee given to the members under enrolment arc very great , while tlie pecuniary ad . vantages cannot bc lost sight of . The legal advantages are , _fiistlv , the priority of claim , which thc law gives the association , in cases of the death or bank ruptcy of any of the officers having the custody of monies property , or securities of the society ; the assignment of counsel by the court , and also of solicitor , free of expense , in cases of dispute arising between the members and their oflieers . The pecuniary advantages ure partly embrace ! in the legal , as well as
exemption from all stamp duties ; and when the questions of transfer and leasing are taken into account , and supposing a solicitor to charge two guineas for a long stamped rigmarole of a lease , and suppose the society , from first to last , to number 10 , 000 , here is of itself as saving , from enrolment , of 20 , 000 guineas , independently of all other savings . Gentlemen , this is one of the great means at the disposal of the working classes—co-operation ; and it is by this means chartered societies , whether upon the high seas or the high road , are enabled to beat down all individual
competition . Next to enrolment , gentlemen , comes a wise application of the means to the end ; and first in importance , to this branch , comes the thiug promised for tlie thing paid . The thing paid is £ 210 s . ; the thing promised is two acres of land , ofa specified quality , a cottage thar / . osts £ 30 in building , and £ 15 , as capital , to each member , when located , to cany on operations . Xow , Gentlemen , you will see at once what per se , or considered alone , without its relative contingencies _, would appear an impossibility , namely , that a society should _sive each of its members £ 15 , and only receive
£ 2 10 s . as thc price ofthe _ivliole . Gentlemen , you will at once sec that much of the success of thc society must depend npon thc undiminished value of the thing bought and to be sold again . The prospects of all succeeding _oeeupants will mainly depend upon the terms upon which tlie first drafts are located . Now , gentlemen , as all should be bound to all , and as all __ houldhave , as nearly as possible , equal rights ; and ss those first located will decidedly be test off , we should show , to all expectants , that the earlier realiza . tion of the hopes of some are , in some degree , compensated by the certainty of the object being achieved by _alL To this end I suagest the pro-riety of the £ 15
advanced standing asa lien against all who receive it at aa interest of 5 percent , added to the rent , until even * member of the association shall have been _loCTtea upon his allotment . Gentlemen , this will preserve and keep alive a continuous brotherhood between those located and those to be located ; and those who are postponed will have the satisfaction of getting 5 perecnt . for thc money advanced ; and as thc health of iLesociety will be more _atd more developed every day , we may conclude that those who are amongst the latest occupants wili have tlieir reward in receivinn-ihek * £ 15 , discharged of interest , as the
premium for delay . Gentlemen , I do not propose £ haii .. _ sSpcr cent upon the £ 15 shall be sold or _mortgaged , but that -Bshall be a reserved rent , always io revert back to _ihe-sodety in one shape or another , Shi always for the purpofe ? s of tbe members . Gentlemen , the next appztmt dilliculty , with whicli yon will have to deal , will he tlie amount of rent to be paid by each ; but here I tliinfc the dullest will see the impossibility of establishing any _fixOd rent except
by scale , which does partake of as miC _' -h fixity as you can insure . Thus , if you say that a member _Ehall pay £ 5 a-year for two acres of kind tha * _c 05 _* £ 40 , that is £ 20 an acre , and a house that costs £ _3 _Q > you say as distinctly , without stating tie very f _ . 'Ct . tliat the member who gets two acres that costs _£ _C _0 _, _" or £ 30 an acre , shall pay £ 6 a-ycar , and the member who gets two acres that costs £ 30 , or £ 15 an acre , shall onlv par £ 4 10 s .
Gentlemen , the next branch of the subject to which I shall call yonr attention is to the question of amount ; whether two or four acres shall be thc society ' s standar d . For myself , I can very well appreciate the desire of a j _e-rson , wiiii a large family , to possess _himself of that quantity of land " to wliich lie _supposscs he may have the labour required for its cultivation in his own family ; and , therefore , I am for allowing every member to exercise lus own judgment upon firs head , while 1 would still enforce the inability ofa n an , with a small family , to cultivat e en two acres to the highest state of perfection
Car I>£Ntkrs' Hall, Manchester, Mosdat, ...
However , this is entirely a subject for the consideration of the shareholders themselves . The next point to which I would direct your attention is one of considerable importance ; it is , as to whether selection of occupants shall be made by priority of payment or by ballot . Upon this point , counsel has only given his opinion in favour of priority , lest the laws made against gaming and lotteries should interfere with the enrolment ; but upon being reminded that tbe cases so far differed , as regards our association , and those who purchased tickets , some with the certainty TT . . ..-.- - __ -
ofgetting blanks : whereas , our rules provided prizes for all , although the acquisition of them by some is postponed to a later period : Counsel , therefore , has merely given the preference to priority , lest the adoption of the ballot may lead to disappointment . For my own part I think the details to carry out the principle of priority would be much more cumbrous and difficult of management than those to carry out the ballot , and , therefore , I am decidedly in favour of the ballot ; while , of course , it will be understood that none are eligible to _nallot except those who have paid up their full shares .
Gentlemen , the next branch of the subject to wliich I shall call your attention is the mode of carrying out our object by the purchase , sub-division , and sale of estates . Here the two means of realising further funds , either by mortgage , or sale , present themselves . In the one I sec not only difficulty , but disagreeable probabilities ; in the other , I see not only agreeable probabilities , but cheering certainties . For instance , we purchase , say one hundred acres of land , for £ 2 , 000 , and we expend £ 1 , 500 upon the erection of cottages , and pay £ 750 in the shape of advanced capital , at the rate of £ 15 to each member . Now , this makes a total of £ 4 , 250 , which , if we offered for sale , may be sold before the value of the plan was tested for twenty _' years purchase , or £ 5 , 000 ; whereas , if we kept the first allotment for two years , mortgaging it at
three-fourths of its value , at the end of those two years the application of the labour of fifty families to the 10 . 0 acres would increase the value of the purchase from twenty to thirty-three years , the highest rate of purchase that is given for landed security , I wili explain it more familiarly to you . If you attempt to sell as soon as you purchase , the purchaser will purchase at the then value of the land ; whereas , at the end of two . years , what each tenant held for £ 5 ayear , axd which , mind _. would be all that we could sell , would be worth £ 8 a year , or more , from the application of labour , and that £ S a year would be the purchaser ' s security for £ 5 a-year ; and for that he would give as large an amount , and larger , than for government security . Now , twenty years purchase for £ 250 a-ycar will be £ 5 , 000 ; and thirty-three years purchase would be £ S , 250 .
Gentlemen , these are the peculiar features of cooperation that I would impress upon your minds . I am , then , for mortgaging , in tke first instance , and thereby realising , subsequently , as large a fund as possible for the benefit of the members—a benefit that must result from a fair testing of the plan ; and , mind , what has been done in the first instance may be subsequently relied upon by all future purchasers . _Kow , gentlemen , I eome to a portion of my subject which never has been discussed by the public yet . I mean not only the probability , but the certainty , of our funds , or rather our security , being increased as follows : — We will suppose that 100 members are about to be located from amongst those who have paid up in full , and consequently the most wealthy ,
"When the land is purchased the allotment takes place before the houses are built , and I think we may fairly presume that out of the 100 who have paid up in full , upon an average , each would expend £ 10 more upon his cottage than the society guaranteed ; that would increase the value of the property by £ 1 , 000 ; while it would not make thc member , who had spent it , liable to any more than £ 5 a-year rent . This you will find wiil be the strongest preservation of the link of brotherhood and membership , and will have thc effect of proving to the poorest that thc wealthiest , while they have been the first provided for , have not been discharged from the ulterior duty of lending themselves and their funds to the accomplishment ol the general objects of all .
Gentlemen , these views have been set out partially in many of my earlier letters ; now I condense them i ' or your consideration , always bearing in mind , that though the society gives but £ 70 worth for what it charges £ 5 a-ycar , yet , in their individual capacity the working classes could not procure the same advantages for £ 10 a-year , or indeed at all , as there is no maf / ict open for such traffic . Gentlemen , I beg to keep your minds rivetted to this question of
iucorporative power . I beg to remind you that societies , incorporated with the individual resources of a number of poor individuals , are enabled to compete with , and finally to overcome , all the competition of the wealthiest individuals . This is , then , our strength ; we overcome tke law of primogeniture . We bring the raw material into the free labour market , and we offer it in competition with the slave labour price of wages .
Gentlemen , I am not melined to treat any suggestion upon this subject lightly , provided it is made in a proper spirit ; and , therefore , I shall offer an observation or two on that emanating from Manchester . I mean the propriety of bringing the allotments up to a certain state of bearing by the expenditure ot the promised capital , under judicous management , j before thc more ignorant of the occupants should j enter upon the undertaking . If this is left to their j own option , I not only have no objection to the prin ciple , but I further volunteer my services as their unpaid steward and instructor , deducting from their
original £ 15 capital , what has been judiciously expended in labour , and allowing them to take possession of their allotments in full bearing , and when the fruits of my industry shall be ripe . Gentlemen , if my health permitted , I should bave entered much more minutely iuto this important subject . I regret that my ten days'illness has deprived nie ofthe benefit . of the counsel of my brother directors . In the short time that my recovery allowed , I have gathered as much of their views , as I could , whereas , if I have misunderstood , or mis-stated them , tbey are at perfect liberty to object to what I have now offered , as this manifesto must be taken solely as my own opinion .
Gentlemen , I presume that you all have an equal interest , with myself _. in this _gigantic , national scheme , and if any have joined in the hope of possessing themselves- of £ 15 for £ 2 10 s . paid up , and if the alterations , that I consider necessary in the rules , should alarm such speculators , I have that reliance upon you , gentlemen , that the dread of losing the gamblers will be more than compensated for by the establishment of that firm principle upon which the alteration will base the rights of the poorest , as weli as thc prior claim of the richest . Gentlemen , my object is , that no man should be discharged of his liabilities to the association until every member of the body shall be first provided for , and that thei ; the general savings from the co-operation of all , shal ) he _eqoallv , honestly , and honourably divided amongst
all . Before I sit down , I will read for you one of the guarantees which enrolment confers , and one whicli , in a money speculation , should be courted by every 0 cer who has aught to do with the funds of the s oc / ety : and , gentlemen , bear one thing in mind , and nevei . _** iose sight of it , it is this—esrolmext is osly bexefi CIAL T 0 T ,, E _MEunEns . If the officers had any _notion 0 l playing the rogue , they would be for nonenrolment as » tnen _» tue members would have no protection a * 5 _* inst their frauds . ExnouuEXT , _thekeror . E is roit T ,, E _^ _m'E' _-s ; xo . vesroi . mext is fok the _oeficeus . ' 'Gentlemen , before I sit down , I will read for you one o { tDe advantages of enrolment . The aet that I hoi . ' " i" my band has the following provision : — " And b . * - & fui { ner enacted , that if any person already appoint ' _" _*& _> or who may hereafter be appointed , to any office i , i" ° eiety established under
Car I>£Ntkrs' Hall, Manchester, Mosdat, ...
the said recited act , or this act , and being entrusted with the keeping of the accounts , or having in his hands , or possession , by / virtue of his said office or employment , any monies or effects belonging to sueh society , or any deeds or securities relating to the same , shall die , or become a bankrupt , or insolvent ; or have any execution , or attachment , or other process issued , or action , or diligence , raised against his lands , goods , chattels , or effects , or . property , or estate , heritable or moveable , or make any assignment , disposition , assigmtion , or otlier conveyance thereof for the benefit of his creditors , his heirs , executors , administrators , or assignees , or other persons having legal rights , or the sheriff , or other officer executing such process , or the party using such action or diligence , shall , within forty
days of the demand made in writing , by the order of any such society or committee thereof , or the major part of them assembled at any meeting thereof , deliver and pay over all monies and other things belonging to such society to such person as such society or committee shall appoint , and shall pay out of the estates , assets , or effects , heritable or moveable , of such person , all sums of money remaining due which such person received by virtue of his said office or employment , before any other of his debts are paid or satisfied , or before the money directed to be levied by such process as aforesaid , or whicli may be recovered or recoverable under such diligence , is paid over to the party issuing such process , or using such diligence : aud all such assets , lands , goods , chattels , property , estates , and effects shall be bound to the payment and discharge thereof accordingly . "
Now , gentlemen , there ' s a strong inducement to force me to get rid of all my prejudices against enrolment . There ' s _fhoteciiox , which nothing but the law can afford . Gentlemen , there are other subjects , such as the appointment of trustees and directors , aud their duties , the obligation of officers , and the question of finance , to which I shall take a fitting opportunity of directing your attention , with the view of making your laws as stringent as you can to enforce a just discharge of those several duties . I conclude , by once more reminding you of our power , whicli consists in our incorporation ; and further reminding you , that the triumph of free trade
principles may result in our ability to purchase slices of the estates of the aristocracy at one-half their present value . I now remind you , that the rules , upon which this society has been established , were neither considered perfect or binding , and the more you alter and correct them , if those corrections and alterations are calculated to give stability to your project , and security to the members , the better the memberswill appreciate the change , for thoy are a considerate and a thoughtful people . Gentlemen , I have how done more than I was justified in my present state of health in doing—I sit down , leaving the question to your guardianship .
_AFTERNOON SITTING . Mr . Canning , from Wigan , not being furnished with credentials , was allowed to take his seat until his credentials were produced . Mr . Cufiay moved , and Mr . Taylor seconded , " That each motion lie handed to the chairman , in writing , previous tO its being put , and _thattlic mover , and other speakers , be allowed ten minutes-each , and the mover of the resolution five minutes in replv . Mr . _Yallance , from Barnsley , produced hi 3 credentials , and took his seat accordingly .
Air . O Connor moved , and Mr . Leach seconded , the following resolution : — " That the conference do now resolve itself into a committee for the purpose of considering the alterations to be made in the " rules . " The motion , after discussion , was withdrawn for the present . Air . Ilobson moved , - aiid Mr . O'Connor seconded , " Tliat , in the opinion of this conference , it is highly essential to the success of the Chartist Co-operative Land Society that the rules should be enrolled under the Benefit and Building Societies' Acts , inasmuch
as such course will aloue give seeuritv to the members , and limit the responsibility of all concerned to the cxlent of the society ' s operations . To this end the conference instruct the board of directors to procure sueh enrolment , with the name of the society remaining as it now stands , if that be possible ; but should the revising barrister refuse to certify with such name , the directors are further instructed to change the name to that of the National Co-operative Land Society . "
Mr . Dixon moved , and Mr . Shaw seconded , the foUowing motion-. — "That the directors bc empowered to submit the rules , as agreed to , to Tidil Pratt ; Esq ., for enrolment ; and in the event of the name , as it at present stanrls , being an obstacle , and in the event of Tidd Pratt refusing to enrol , that then an appeal be made , as provided by law ; and in the event of the name standing as an obstacle , that then the directors bc empowered to confer with the several districts , through the delegates now assembled , with the view to taking the opinion of the members upon the subject . " Mr . Cuftuy objected to the alteration of the name ; and should it not- be possible to get it enrolled without its alteration , that the enrolment be not persisted in .
Air . Leach said , the object of enrolment was to guarantee the working classes from their being robbed by the middle classes ; for , although the name of the society is the Chartist Co-operative Land Society _, yet its members were not confined to the Chartist body ; a large portion of its members are not , and never were , Chartists . Under the present rules there is no remedy for thc dishonesty of any of its servants ; not that he suspected any of them were dishonest ; but unless enrolment was conceded , it would be the destruction of confidence . Mr . Knight : The interest of the society requires that its rules should be enrolled either with or without the name . Mr . Vallance was instructed to support thc enrolment _^ ! ' the society , if thc name , and objects remained in their present state .
Mr . G . W . \ V heeler would not vote for the enrolment if the rules , if the objects , or the name were altered . Mr . Shaw would vote for the enrolment of the rules with or without the name . Mr . Brown : One portion of my constituents are in favour of enrolment , either with or without the name , while the other portion have instructed nie to vote against the enrolment , if the name was to be altered . Mr . Canning was instructed to support the enrolment of the rules at all events , the name being no object to his constituents . Mr . Leach moved the following : — " That in the opinion of this conference , the Land Society ' s rules should be Immediately enrolled , and that the board of directors be instructed to accomplish the same witli or without the name . "
Mr . Doyle : lliere are a great number of persons waiting to join the _association , but who will not do so unless it is enrolled , as there is no guarantee for the honesty ofthe officers of the society , for although no officer has at present absconded wi ' tli any money , still that is no reason that tliey might not ; for these reasons he should support the enrolment . Mr . G . W . Wheeler moved , and Mr . Gilbertson seconded the motion— " that the rules be not- enrolled unless the name and objects are retaine '' . ' ' Mr . Ilobson : It is not in tlic power of Tidd Pratt to refuse the enrolment of the rules , even with the name as at present , provided those rules are in conformity with all the provisions of tlie Benefit Society ' s Act . The intentions of the society must be stated in the rules . In his opinion , the passing of the last resolution would be an act of suicide . On a divisi on there
appeared—For Mr . G . W . Wheeler's amendment ... 2 " Mr . Dixon ' s 7 " The original motion S Mr . Ilobson moved , and Mr . Cuftiiy seconded , a motion for the printing of Mr . O'Connor ' s statement , which was carried unanimously . The conference then adjourned till nine o ' clock tomorrow niomimr .
TUESDAY MORNING-DECEMBER 0 . _« s r _* , eiT _* 8 ton in _tbo chair . Mr . Ilobson * . There are several points in the statement of Mr . O'Connor that require explanation . It the system of priority is introduced , it will be necessary to keep an account of payments , even to the traction of an hour . The conference arc here to _legislate against probabilities and possibilities . The ballot gives every man a chance to be located , for these reasons he would move , — "That , iii the opinion oi this conference , the mode of selecting occupants ior the allotments , by ballot , from among those who have paid up then * shares , is calculated to give the greatest amount of confidence to the members generally , because it precludes favouritism , and prevents all intrigue , fraud , or collusion . " Mr . Smythe , of Bradford , seconded the motion ,
Car I>£Ntkrs' Hall, Manchester, Mosdat, ...
as he consideied it was the only way to give stability t j the society . Mr . Vallance was of opinion that tho _system of priority would introduce great confusion into thc management of the . affairs of the society . Mr . Knight objected to the ballot , supported priority of payment , and moved , — " That priority of payment constitute priority of occupation . " Mr . O'Connor : You will recollect that thc opinion of counsel was only against the ballot , fearing that it would render the society liable to the Gaming and Lottery Acts . One objection to the resolution was to any man balloting unless he shall have paid up his whole share , Tlic conference were perfectly at liberty to alter rules for the further benefit of the society . As to the question of priority , what should be done with those parties who had paid up at the present time . If you establish the ballot for those who have already paid up , and priority of payment for those paying after , it will cause great dissatisfaction among the shareholders .
Mr . Taylor seconded the motion of Mr . Knight , and stated that the fraction of an hour could not be of that importance as it had been represented . Mr . M'Grath considered that thesystem . of priority would not give general satisfaction . There were many obstacles to it which were insurmountable . How could it be applied to those who had already paid up their shares ? And when thirty or forty enrolled in different localities at the same time , how is their _priority to be determined ? He thought the ballot the wisest plan ; it gave to all a fair chance , and was perfectly practicable , whereas the principle of priority could not be carried out with pricision , and it gave to capital a decided advantage over poverty . Mr . Cuffay : There is great difference between
ballot and lot—the ballot is putting in , and lot the taking out . The lot , by allotment , is the putting the names into an urn and drawing from them the prizes . A great deal depends upon priority . If the society be divided into sections , then vote for priority . Mr . Wheeler : As far as he himself was concerned , he was most decidedly in favour of priority . The success of the society depends upon priority of payment . A great majority of members are in favour of priority of payment . There will be no difficulty in keeping thc accounts , fov , should it so happen that forty or fifty pay up in one day , thc sooner the location would take place . Mr , Clark : Mr . Wheeler ' s plan cannot be carried out , and I deny that the majority ofthe members arc in favour of priority .
Mr . Leach : How can priority of payment be reconciled with justice . A man paying liis threepence aweek is not in the same situation as a man who can pay the whole down . Mr . Dixon : A great majority of his constituents were in favour ofthe ballot . Mr . Canning was decidedly in favour of the ballot . Air . G . W . Wheeler said that he should support the motion of Mr . Clark as the one most conducive to the interest of the shareholders , and the only one on which the confereneo could be consistent . Mr . _^ Hobson ' s principal objection is , that it invested a discretionary power in thc hand of the directors ; but his own . plan is open to the same objection ; for if tliree districts were to be chosen , they would still have the opportunity of chosing which they would select , * but surely members were not going to elect to this office men in whom tliey had no confidence . Mr . Ilobson objects to the motion of Mr . O'Connor on the ground of the competition it would occasion , whilst the same
objection applied to his own plan ; besides it tied up the hands ofthe directing body ; and they must be aware that land often realized a fictitious price , as many parties were compelled to part with land at a much lower price than its real value ; and Irani the present railway maniait was likely tliat the directors , if their hand ' s were not tied up , would probably purchase land much lower than the present market price . Mr . Ilobson had said a great deal about Irishmen and Scotchmen leaving their homes aud coming to this country ; but if they did conic it was because they could get a better living here ; and wherever a man could get a living that would be his home . Another advantage of Mr . Clark ' s motion was that if . 100 persons were located , coming from 100 different localities , it would give a greater impetus to the society . Men would say—Tom Smith was gone , and it will soon be my turn—whicli would be a great inducement to many to join this society . Air . O'Connor moved that the conference resolve
it > elt into a committee , and that no speaker be allowed to occupy the time of the conference more than two minutes . Mr . Poole secor . ded the resolution . Mr . Brown : His constituents were in favour of the ballot , unless lhe society was divided into districts , and then they were in favour of priority of payment . Mr . Poole : There will be great injustice in priority of payment , unless the society is divided into dristricts . Air . Harrington : Only one _placejin Scotland is in favour of the priority . If the conference decide in favour of the ballot , a considerable portion of his constituents would retire from the society . Mr . O'Connor : No person that cannot pay up his share in full will pay any portion of his money , if the time of closing the society is stated . Tho legitimate members and founder of the society have paid their money on the faith of the ballot .
Mr . Cuffay : His instructions were in favour ol priority . Did not believe that the society being closed at a particular day would cause any diminution in the payment of shares . 'Mr . Shaw was in favour of the ballot . If priority of payment bc allowed , those who were able would pay up , and sivamp the whole concern . Mr . Leach moved that rule 10 should form part oi the amended rules , with the addition that thc society close its first district when the society consists of 6 , 000 members . Mr . O'Connor seconded the motion ; where there is nccessity for alteration do it , but do not alter where
unnecessary . Mr . Ilobson said , selection by ballot means precisely what the parties mean by election by lot . Lot means lottery , but the word being used might enable the revising barrister to bring in the acts of gaming and lottcrv to bear upon the question of enrolment . Mr . Doyle had heard some members ofthe London district complain that priority of payment would be attended with great injustice . Mr . Taylor ; ' The man who comes forward and pays liis whole money , is rendering a great benefit to the
poorer payers . Mr . Saunders was in favour of priority of payment . Air . Hob . on : Objections raised by liim had not been answered ; the principle of priority would entail great expense ; what objection to the ballot ? On a division there appeared—For the amendment 12 •• Alotion 5 A question arising as to the propriety of carrying out the last resolution , Mr . Ilobson said , it doe 3 not follow that , having confirmed a principle , you should enter into all the details connected with it . Mr . Clark moved , that the selection of localities be intrusted to the board of directors . Air . M'Grath seconded the motion : It was very unwise and very unjust to limit thc exirtionof the directors , for the rule did not compel a man to go upon the land , though successful ,
Mr . O'Connor repudiated the position in which Air . Clark ' s motion would place the directors—no objection to incur any responsibility that the subscribers of the society imposed upon the directors The proposition of Air . 0 rk was premature . Thei e was land enough offered for sale every day in the year , and it mig ht be obtained in any district .
AFTERNOON SITTING . Mr . Clark said the reason of proposing the resolution was , that the directors would have better opportunities of knowing where land was to be purchased —with some parties , situation was no object . He knew a party that was willing to go within ten yards ofthe gates of heil so that he got upon thc land . Air . Ilobson ; The onerous duties sought to be imposed by the conference on the directory is likely to produce angry feelings among the shareholders—they would be inundated with suggestions , and every little plot of land that was for sale would be forwarded to them—and unless that plot of land was bought it would produce great dissatisfaction and jealousy
amongst the unsuccessful . Divide the country into districts , and when sufficient money is in hand , draw from those districts ; and if the first is not successful , go to the sceond , and so on . Most likely there would be no occasion to proceed further than the first , for there is always _sufheient land in the market to be bought any day in the week . Those enthusiastic persons , who say that they would go within a few yards ofthe gates of hell so that they could get upon the land , would be the first to complain ol favouritism , if unsuccessful in obtaining the ballot . Air . Smyth , in seconding the amendment , said , ii the present motion was passed by the conference it would destroy all confidence in the directory , and give rise to the charge of favouritism .
Mr . Clark : It has been already laid down , that no person shall be allowed to ballot unless he has paid lip his share ; but , according to Air . Hobson _' s plan , if lorkshire was the fortunate district , it might be years before those of the Alanchester district would be located . Should wish to see land purchased , in the first instance , in those districts where the most members were . Air . Wheeler would support the views advocated by Air . Clarl :.
Car I>£Ntkrs' Hall, Manchester, Mosdat, ...
Mr . O'Connor would suggest that , before the purchase of land in nny locality , a ballot take place amongst all the . members , and a majority should signify to the directors whether they would wish the land to be purchased . He was sure that the greater the responsibility vested in the members , the greater the satisfaction would be ; lie moved the following resolttion : — "That when the sum of - £ 5 , 000 shall be paid _, the directors shall then proceed to ballot from amongst the members who have paid up tlieir shares in full , and where tho required number shall be so elected , that then the members , so selected , shall proceed by such means as the majority shall agree upon , for the purpose of selecting a , locality where the purchase of land shall take place , and tue directors shall be bound by such decision . " Mr . Clark asked the question—would not a grc . itei price be paid for a small quantity of land than that for a greater quantity ?
Air . Hobson : The amendment proposed by Mr . O'Connor is unwise . He would not like to see the necessity for the shareholders , in this society , to leave their homes . Mr . Wheeler opposed the adoption of Air . O'Connor ' s amendment . Mr . Poole said—Did the shareholders know where the land was about to be purchased , no doubt that even the threepenny shareholders would make a struggle to get the money to pay up their shares . Mr . M'Grath had heard nothing to alter his opinion , as to allowing the directors to have the choice of selecting the place for the purchase of thc land . Alore obstacles would bc created by Mr . Hobson s plan than that proposed by Mr . Clark . Air . Vallance' supported the proposition fer enabling the directors to buy theland . If this power was left in their hands , no doubt it would give the greatestsatisfaction .
Air , O'Connor ; If the difficulties suggested against his amendment had weight , thoy told with a double weight against the plan of Mr . Hobson . Air . Leach ; No doubt there was a great desire , among the shareholders , that the purchase of land should be near the places __ where they lived . The cost of removal to a distant portion would take away the object of the society . Tlie parties who obtained the prizes ought to have a voice in the selection of where the land should be purchased . He supported the amendment of Mr . O'Connor , Tliere could be no difficulty in dividing ? thc country into districts . Ah * . Cuffay : As far as England was concerned he wat a cosmopolite ; but the London shareholders do not expect to havo land purchased for tliem in the suburbs ; they are willing and ready to take their chance . He had a feeling for home , and if he gave way to his feelings , he should prefer the county of Kent .
Mr . Ilobson : By Mr . O'Connor ' s plan there would be no opportunity ofgetting at the opinion of the different shareholders . There were objections to his own plan . It has been urged , tbat it might be the lot of Manchester to be years before the members of that locality would be located ; so that , in fact , it would be years , under any circumstances , before the shareholders of any locality could be located . _» Mr . O'Conneor : The adoption of Mr . Hobson's plan wonld make the directors a mere nonentity . Mr . Leach * . One ofthe principles of the People ' s
Charter was , that there should be equal electoral districts , and as there would not be any difficulty , under that document , in apportioning the country , in cases of elections , why should there be any dilliculty in carrying it out in the land plan . Air . Clarke : The directors are bound to pay attention to the wishes ofthe subscribers . Mr . Hobson ' s plan cannot bc carried out , because it will not only give priority to persons who have paid up their shares , but also to those who have not paid up , Mr . Taylor : The price of land never can , nor never ouglit to be , an object with the directors .
Mi * . Dixon said : To buy land for twenty-five cannot be accomplished at the same price as if the purchase was to be made for . -G 100 . He proposed to divide the number of shareholders paid up into four districts . The removal of parties from home would have material _effect upon thc objects of the society . Mr . Doyle said , that Mr . O'Connor was going directly in opposition to all his former statements and writings ; as he had formerly stated thatthe purchase of a small quantity of land would cost " more , in proportion , than that of a larger quantity . The best possible plan to adopt was to leave theselection of land to the directors . Mv . O'Connor explained .
Air . Hobson ; Tliere never was a subject that was not open to objections , and with a view to embody the ideas of the members of the conference , he would move the following resolution : — " The directors shall , in their piu _' ehasing and drafting of occupiers , be guided , as far as practicable , by the principle of providing allotments for the members , so as to render it unnecessary for a family to remove far from home . To this end , when the necessary amount of capital is so subscribed , they shall classify the members who have paid up their shares into sections , guided by locality , and before they commence operations they shall place as many slips of paper as there aro in a suitable vessel , each slip having the name of a section written on , and all being folded up alike . Then an indifferent person shall _beaopointcd to draw these
papers out of the lot , and in one of the localities so drawn shall the firstpurchase be made ; if practicable , preference being given to the first drawn . Out of the members residing in , or contiguous to , such district , who have paid up their full subscription , shall the occupiers of this particular plot of land be selected ; and the same rule shall bc observed to regulate the locality of all the subsequent purchasers and alloeatons . " It is not necessary ! that the directors should give notice of the place where they intend to purchase . By giving notice of intention to purchase it would cause greater competition amongst the bidders . Prudence , therefore , would suggest the propriety of the dircctorskceping it asecret as to when and where they were coming into thc market .
Mr . Cuffay objected to tne alteration of Air . Hobson ' s motion . Mr . M'Grath : Mr . Ilobson seems to dread competition , and no doubt competition is to be dreaded , _* there is a great many who would gladly sing the rcquium of the land society . Air . G . W . Wheeler said , that the motion of Mr . Clark was the only safe plan that could be adopted . You must know when to get the land . Land is not always either let or sold at its real value . Home is that where a man can get an honest living . Air . Saunders was opposed to the plan of Mr . Hobson . __ They had heard a great deal about home , but it was impossible for the conference , or i ' or the directors to legislate , so as to locate every shareholder near the place of his nativity ; he should , therefore , support Air . Clark ' s motion .
Air . Leach : It should be an instruction to the directors that they should purchase the land near the residences of the successful candidates . It would be a stronger inducement to shareholders to support the society if they knew that tho land would be purchased in or near the several localities to which they belonged . Air . O'Connor insisted that the ballot must take place before the purchase was made . Air . Vallance : We have been taught to believe that the rules of the society required but little variation ; and , therefore , he should vote for Air . Clarke ' s motion . Mr . O'Connor would withdraw his amendment if Mr . Clarke would embody it in his motion . Air . Hobson's amendment 3 Original motion as amended 13
Mr . Clarke , having agreed to amend his motion according to the suggestion of Mr . O'Connor , thc following resolution was submitted to the conference : — " That the selection of the locality , where the purchase of land shall be made , be entrusted to the board of directors , it being imperative upon them to make such purchase in the district where the greatest number of members , who have paid ' up their _sliase _? , may be resident . "
WEDNESDAY SITTINGS . Mr . Sherrington in the chair . The roll having been called , and thc minutes read , Air . Clark moved the rescinding of the resolution come to yesterday , inasmuch as it would compel the directors always to purchase the land in those districts were the greatest number of paid members resided . Mr . M'Grath , in seconding the motion , said that -no doubt they would be charged with inconsistency , in asking the conference to undo what they had done ; but the directors saw great difficulty in carrying out the resolution . Mr . Wheeler objected to the rescinding of tho resolution . The Chairman said that the directors , by Mr . Hobson ' s plan , would be too much confined in their operations . He considered that the resolution proposed by Air . Clark , and carried by the conference yesterday , was the best that could be adopted .
Mr . Ilobson moved that the house . resolve itself info a committee , and continue in committee until the whole of the principles be settled . Mr . Cuffay objected to the motion . Mr . Leach seconded the motion . On a division , there appeared _for-going into commmittec _? Againstit 5 Correspondence was read from Wigan , containing
Car I>£Ntkrs' Hall, Manchester, Mosdat, ...
ttie credentials of Mr . Canning ; Jfr . . _ft _*^ _* - of Warwick ; Mr . Calladine , of Hueknall iolkard . . Mr . O'Connor con tended that the principles 1 ot tne society could not be carried out unless the resolution passed bythe conference _yesterday remained on tneminutes . . , '¦ ... ,- _- _ Messrs . Clark -and . _M'Gralh ultimately withdrwr their resolution . "" ¦*_ . ' Air . M'Grath : ' The object of the directors is ta , make the ru ! e 9 as perfect as they possibly could . . ne did not wish the conference to stultify itself , and con-, eluded by moving " That Great Britain be divided _, into districts , to bo distinguished by Nos . 1 , 2 , 3 , die , and that the directors be guided , in purchasing land , by the majority of free members in the districts ; but land shall not be bought a second time in any district till a location take place in each . '
, . , Mr . Clark seconilsd the motion , which was carried unanimously . Mr . Hobson moved , and Mr . Doyle seconded thefollowing resoluton , " That the number of districts be five . " Air . Wheeler moved , and Air . Taylor seconded , the motion , " That the number of districts be two-England and Scotland . " The society eould not be carried out unless the resolution passed yesterday stood . Mr . Leach : The division of the country into districts is the best plan that can be adopted , and the resolution win not tne acts 01
present stuitity yesterday . Air . Doyle : Entirely differed with Air . Clark , although the seconder of the resolution passed yesterday , that the present resolution does not stultify the previous acts of tiie conference . Mr . O'Connor : What is being done now is doing an act of injustice to Manchester . The greater thenuiiiber of the Manchester subscribers , the sooner it will be satiated , and by that means the otlier localities will sooner become entitled to the ballot . The whole plan entirely depends upon the practicability of purchase , allotment , sale , and _repurchase ofthe allotment .
Mr . Vallance : Had Mr . Clark ' s motion , passed yesterday , been discarded by Mr . O'Connor ' s suggestion , it would have _beea mueh hfettei .. Ho should however , now , vote for Air . Hobson's motion . No doubt when it becomes generally known the country is divided into four districts there will be great competition iii paying up the subscription . Mr . Taylor : The conference must legislate for the mass and not for individuals . Mr , Cuffay would vote for Mr . Wheeler ' s amendment . The conference seemed very diffident in vesting power in the hands of the directors . Air . Canning would support the motion of Mr . Ilobson , but could not agree with some of the speakers that if the resolution of yesterday had stood , the land would have been purchased in Lancashire ,
Mr . Shaw : The motion of Air . Ilobson came near to realise what liad been stated , not to removed the shareholders from their usual place of residence . Air . Ilobson : You should not put the whole ofthe members either in Lancashire or Yorkshire into ono district . For the amendment 4 Original motion 12 Mr . Hobson , in moving the following resolution , stated , that it would , as far as practicable , remedy the evil of causing parties to remove from their districts , " That when the directors have selected a locality , and made a purchase in accordance with tlie previous resolutions , the requisite number of residents for the allotments , on such purchase , shall be selected out of the members resident in such district who havo paid up their shares . " Air . Smith seconded the motion .
Mr . Knight would oppose the motion of Mr . Ilobson with . ill the energy he possessed . Mr . Dixon then moved the followingamendment : — " That the ballot be taken from tlie whole of the shareholders in the association who have paid up theiy shares . " Air . Leach seconded the amendment . Mr . Vallance : Observations had been dropped , he would not mention any names , that thc conference were coming to the same conclusion as last night ; that he denied ; the question last night was whether the selection of occupants should be made before the purchase or after . No doubt that where the greatest number of members were , there would be the greatest chance of the members being located . Ilo should , therefore , vote for Mr . Dixon ' s amendment . Air . Cuffay would vote for Air . Dixon's
amendment . Mr . Doyle : Every man who lias paid up his share Avill have his chance of the prize . Do not clog the shareholders , for if you do you will do a great injury and injustice to thc society . Mr . Clark : In ease of parties not wishing to locate in the Manchester district , tbey might give notice to the general secretary , who would then communicate with the district , and thus enable the shareholders in that district to have another chance of a prize—this is perfectly applicable to every district . By this means , without bartering the shares , you satisfy the wish of both parties . There ave numbers of shareholders in Devonshire who would relinquish _, their prizes if they were certain of getting a location near their own residence . Mr . Sherrington * . The majority of shareholders , no doubt , could wish to reside in their respective districts .
Air . O Connor : You can never exclude the adoption of chances from operation in tin ' s society . There are plenty of men in Alnnoliestei * who would be glad to give a bonus to members who may not wish to be located in thc fortunate district . By Mr . Dixon ' s motion you give every member a chance ; but if you confine the chance to a particular district , it would be a very great injustice . You further the adoption of the principle of "Home , Sweet Home , " by making the ballot from the whole members . Mr . Hobson : What does Mr . Clark propose by liis resolution ? Why , ho proposes that the ballot , in cases where the parties refused , or declined to locate where they had obtained the prize , be extended to the whole shareholders ; thus giving them two chances . The resolution proposed by himself would provide the greatest amount of benefit to the shareholders .
Air . Leach : The discussion ofthe question of the transfer of shares is very premature . The object of thc amendment is to give the chances to the whole body of paid-up shareholders . Mr . G . W . Wheeler moved the following resolution : — " That the whole ofthe proceedings ofthe conference , as related to Mv . Clark ' s resolution oi the previous day , should bc rescinded . Air . M'Grath moved the suspension of thc standing orders , which was seconded by Mr . O'Connor , On a division-Air . Wheeler ' s amendment 1 Mr . Dixon ' s 12 Air . Hobson ' s 3 AFTERNOON SITTING .
Air . O'Connor : Wc have affirmed a great many principles of the society—we have affirmed the enrolment—thc selection of occupants b y ballot—and division of the country into districts . The next subject of importance was the mortgage or sale oi land . He said that the object of the society was to purchase land in the wholesale market , and sell it in the retail market , for the benefit of the _working classes . Tho more labour you employ upon the land the greater the value of that land . Seeing the value of labour , that is the principle that should guide youi consideration , as to the mortgage or sale of the land . Home property is not so valuable a security as a fee-farm rent . In the first place , we must commence with mortgage . There are two descriptions
oi mortgage—you purchase an estate and pay so much down , leaving the remaining portion on mortgage ; in the second , you purchase an estate and sell it immediately , Quit and crown rents arc sold at forty years purchase . By the application of labour you raise a thing of £ 5 a-ycar to the value of £ S a-year ; a principle should bc affirmed , that it should be left to the discretion of the directors whether the _property bought should bc sold or mortgaged in the first instance , lie then moved the following : — Resolved , " That the trustees and directory shall have the power to raise money upon the property of the association by loan , mortgage , or sale , for the purpose of carrying out the objects of the society . " Air . Vallance : The shareholders of Barnslev had
instructed him to suggest that the estate should be mortgaged instead of sale . Increase the value of land from the application of labour . If , in the case of theland being offered for sale at the expiration of the third or fourth year , is there not an inducement to the holders to exercise frugality , and very likely save sufficient to purchase their own allotments . Those being his ideas upon thc subject , he was decidedly is favour of mortgage , and concluded by seconding thc resolution . Mr . Cufiay supported thc motion . Mr . G . W . Wheeler stated that he was instructed to support the system of mortgage instead of sale and that some of his constituents were ready to advance £ 800 by way ef mortgage .
Mr . O'Connor stated that he had a promise of a loan fund to the extent of £ 20 , 000 , as soon as the rules ot the society were enrolled . There was no difference between loan and _mortgage Mr . Knight supported the motion , 1 he resolution was carried unanimously . Mr . Hobson stated that he was aware that it was tne intention ol some parties to introduce a loan _, fund m connection with the society tore move , That in _theopinionlof will
greatly conduce to the it all advances of moncv out of societv to tho occupant , to enable should be considered a loan which each borrower shall give Mr . O'Connor : In this case affirm a principle , but we must to carry it out . If we are able to it is ar . act of justice ; but if not money it is an act of injustice . _co-operation , the society will be every member £ 70 worth of propert £ . 0 a-year . I propose , for the bers _, for the honour of the socjety [ Continued in our Eighth Page ]
And National
AND _NATIONAL
Vol. El No. 422. London, Saturday,'Decei...
VOL . EL NO . 422 . LONDON , SATURDAY , ' _DECEipER 13 , 1845 . „ _^ ' _EgJESSfiS »¦» I- I . *• - _•' - " __ . _' *__ . I . _ .. .....
, And Would, Therethis Conferanefejfc Se...
, and would , therethis conferanefeJfc security _^ i _^^^^ v _them £ _^^ _gf _^^^ _© H _^^ i B _^^^ v l _beariiiwpiffei _^] . _0 _£ ' securiW ; 'S _& 'i _^; i _£ ' £ _S _2 _£ TO _$ -J _^ ftCj _^ _$£ also _^ _w-jqiLr _iSJKHte * ' _^ pay _^ _WtJff _ijMct _( _witi ab 5 § t _« _Mfeia _^ i | ef | a ; By _Mef _^ _ffejjSjffii _^ _liSv en _» lidf _* t _4 a _&?^^ Ji _^} y forNihS ? _HKTO J protection on > _n * e _* l » H _ _*^ , —I propose that y , and would , thereif this confe _^ _M _&^ fc . urity / fifi _^ _MpffiM _^ v ' _the _^ _wi _^^^^ _pV erty _forHjtt _$ ? 5 p _^| J tection _offfie _^ KH _^' _^ ty , —I propose that
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), Dec. 13, 1845, page 1, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/ns3_13121845/page/1/
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